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Re: Volatile happens before question

From markspace <-@.>
Newsgroups comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject Re: Volatile happens before question
Date 2012-01-17 15:27 -0800
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <jf504l$m9b$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <15jRq.2104$d%2.1226@newsfe07.iad> <jf4fd8$der$1@dont-email.me> <DEjRq.5131$Xa1.4052@newsfe15.iad> <jf4khn$fqt$1@dont-email.me> <zLudnc9ZU7DQYYjSnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@earthlink.com>

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On 1/17/2012 2:55 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> On 1/17/2012 12:09 PM, markspace wrote:
>> On 1/17/2012 11:06 AM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> ...
>>> If b=1, that means a MUST be true.
>>
>> No, if b = 1, it could just be a random value made up by the CPU.
>
> That is one of the few behaviors that is specifically excluded. "Each
> read sees a write to the same variable in the execution.",
> http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/third_edition/html/memory.html#17.4.7


Well, I know Java can't exclude "made up values" because it happens in 
hardware.  Java has no choice but to execute on hardware.

The section you are referring to is 17.4.7 Well Formed Executions, and 
starts thusly: "We only consider well-formed executions."  In a well 
formed execution, I believe you are right, the program only sees writes 
that another thread actually made.

However a well formed execution also requires "4. The execution is 
happens-before consistent" and I believe that's what's being violated 
here.  Once you start reading variables with out proper synchronization, 
the concept of well formed executions are no longer valid and all of 
those 5 points go out the window.

This is what Brian Goetz means when he says "Programs with data races 
have no useful defined semantics."  Data races mean your code is no 
longer well formed.  Nice things like "you don't see made up values" 
don't work.  Things are just a mess.

Check that Vimeo link I posted, esp. the part about "out of thin air" 
values.  It's hard to get your head around but important, I think, to 
understand what happens when executions are not well-formed.  It 
provides good incentive to make sure your code really is synchronized in 
all cases.

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Thread

Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-17 04:04 -0800
  Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-17 08:17 -0800
    Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 08:50 -0800
      Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-17 09:00 -0800
    Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-17 08:54 -0800
      Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 11:24 -0800
    Re: Volatile happens before question Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-01-17 14:49 -0800
      Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 15:49 -0800
      Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-17 17:14 -0800
        Re: Volatile happens before question Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-01-17 18:17 -0800
          Re: Volatile happens before question Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 16:45 -0800
  Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 08:18 -0800
    Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 08:33 -0800
      Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 08:49 -0800
        Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 09:21 -0800
          Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 10:10 -0800
            Re: Volatile happens before question Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-01-17 10:28 -0800
              Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 10:41 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-01-17 11:06 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 12:09 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 12:12 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-17 12:38 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 13:35 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 14:41 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-01-17 14:55 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 15:27 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-17 17:37 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-17 17:42 -0800
            Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 15:46 -0800
              Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 16:14 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 20:01 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-17 20:37 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 21:52 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-17 23:47 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-18 00:08 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-18 09:04 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2012-01-18 11:22 +0000
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-18 06:24 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-18 07:32 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-18 08:34 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-18 10:12 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-18 11:15 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-18 11:59 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-18 12:24 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-18 13:16 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-18 15:00 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-18 16:12 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-01-18 16:34 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-18 17:17 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-01-18 19:03 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-18 15:30 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-18 16:10 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 08:18 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-19 09:40 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 10:10 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-19 10:39 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 12:13 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-19 13:31 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 16:14 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-19 21:16 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-20 03:23 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-20 06:46 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-20 08:56 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-01-20 11:12 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-18 17:06 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-01-19 12:46 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-19 13:38 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-18 07:32 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-01-18 00:06 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-18 09:23 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 17:07 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 17:12 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 19:22 -0800
  Re: Volatile happens before question Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-01-17 10:24 -0800

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