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Re: Why “new”?

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On Mon, 07 Feb 2011 19:10:47 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 07-02-2011 03:18, Ken Wesson wrote:
>> See my response to Patricia. You added "programming language" to the
>> query but the first post mentioning J did not make it clear that it was
>> a programming language, only that learning it would make APL code seem
>> less like line noise. Whether that meant it was an APL derivative, an
>> APL IDE, a mathematical system using similar symbols, or some other
>> tool was not made clear by that post.
> 
>> This makes it sound like J might be an APL derivative or relative, but
>> is more likely an APL ecosystem tool created significantly later in
>> time than APL itself. If that impression was misleading, well, Arved
>> Sandstrom is the one who wrote it.
> 
> It could have been other things than a programming language, but a
> programming language should be one of the first guesses.

I didn't *feel* like guessing. Why are you saying that I was obligated to 
guess rather than ask and find out for sure? Because I did the latter, 
got flamed, and now you're suggesting I should have done the former 
instead.

That does not make sense.

Why should I guess when there's someone right there that I know knows the 
exact answer? The obvious thing to do in such a situation is ask, so 
that's what I did.

Now get off my case. I've done nothing that warrants the way I've been 
treated recently.

>> I suggest all of those with that trait try to be a bit more circumspect
>> with such opinions. Oftentimes what you thought was obvious wasn't.
>> Tone of voice doesn't survive the transition to email and newsposts, so
>> sometimes connotative content gets lost.
> 
> But I don't think much was lost in "J" and "APL".

There I was alluding to the *other* pointless and stupid flamewar you 
people have started recently. Where something was meant sarcastically and 
I made no unwarranted assumptions about how it was meant, instead of 
guessing and possibly getting it wrong. Apparently I was supposed to 
guess there too, and presumably magically guess right as well.

And yes, that last sentence was meant sarcastically, because I think this 
whole affair is ludicrous. Apparently you have expectations of me that 
are unreasonable given the limitations of the medium and the fact that I 
am not actually a walking encyclopedia of every single programming 
language, nuanced bit of usage, and so forth; and when I fall short of 
those ridiculous expectations the standard response is to flame rather 
than to be tolerant. How utterly silly and revolting. It makes me not 
want to be a part of any community that behaves like yours does.

>>                                          You were thinking it when you
>> posted it, and then you assume it's obvious to anyone reading it, but
>> it's not. Or in the case at hand, you assume J will be vaguely familiar
>> to someone else as being a programming language, when they may never
>> have heard of it,
> 
> I am pretty sure that Peter had never heard of it either.
> 
> But has learned to use Google and Wikipedia.

So have I. Enough to know their limitations, too, and that "J" is not a 
good query in either's search, so I'd have to guess at additional terms 
and probably spend several minutes experimenting with the query before 
being reasonably sure what Arved meant.

Or I could just ask him.

But if I'd known beforehand that asking him would prompt this ludicrous 
overreaction from at least 3 other people I'd have just ignored the whole 
matter and gone on not knowing what the hell J was!

> http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#keepcool

Oh, the irony. I'm the only one here who is making some discernible 
effort to be civil and to argue on the facts without resorting to 
namecalling or personal insinuations of any kind, and you're telling ME 
to "keep cool"!

Every other word out of your mouth is some sort of insinuation that I'm 
not a "real programmer" or some other such disparagement lately; Peter is 
not much better, nor Mike; and Lew has stooped to direct and blunt 
personal attacks; and you're telling ME to "keep cool".

I think it's clear from the tones of the various newsposts here who 
really deserves to receive (implicitly-barbed) advice to "keep cool". #1: 
Lew. #2: you. #3 (tied): Mike and Peter. #5 (distant): me. And you jumped 
right to the tail of that list for some unfathomable reason.

Well, I could speculate on what that reason might be, but if I did I 
would then be as guilty as Lew of making unconstructive personal attacks.

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Re: Why “new”? Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2011-02-07 15:48 +0800
  Re: Why “new”? Ken Wesson <kwesson@gmail.com> - 2011-02-08 12:30 +0100
    Re: Why “new”? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-02-08 22:58 -0500
  Re: Why “new”? blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm@myrealbox.com> - 2011-02-09 15:31 +0000
  Re: Why “new”? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-02-07 19:10 -0500
  Re: Why “new”? Ken Wesson <kwesson@gmail.com> - 2011-02-08 12:17 +0100
    Re: Why “new”? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-02-08 23:05 -0500
    Re: Why “new”? Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2011-02-08 20:24 +0800
  Re: Why “new”? Ken Wesson <kwesson@gmail.com> - 2011-02-07 09:18 +0100

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