Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.java.help > #1293

Re: Enum basics

Show all headers | View raw

Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> Lew wrote:
> ...
>> Contrary to the crap you put forward, Roedy, you don't have to be a
>> "language lawyer" to understand the cited passages, either.  Just a
>> programmer.
> 
> Lew's claim seems to be that any programmer can read the JLS. Roedy's

Actually, my claim is that any Java programmer *should* read the JLS.

Like any other programming skill, understanding the specification requires some practice and effort to learn.  It's an effort that must be made.

> claim seems to be that JLS reading is a specialized skill, distinct
> from, and in addition to, general programming skill.

To be a programmer requires more than being able to slavishly copy a for-loop into a method.  It is an engineering skill pulling in a panoply of foundational skills such as being able to reason from incomplete specifications, knowing how to architect cooperating layers, ramping up independently on libraries and technologies that one needs, understanding algorithmic behaviors such as runtime asymptotes, and many, many more skills that go into the complex art of computer programming.

> This is actually an interesting question. To me, the JLS seems the
> clearest description of Java I have found, and is my go-to document when
> I want to know anything about the core language, as distinct from the
> libraries.
> 
> However, I had studied the theory of formal grammars and compiler
> construction, worked on compilers, and read several other language
> specifications before Java was invented. I may be a "language lawyer".
> 
> I'm interpreting "a programmer" as someone who can program, without
> requiring any other skill. This question could easily become circular if
> inability to read the JLS were treated as evidence of not being a
> programmer.

It is incomplete as you present it, and itself is circular already, and trivially so.  You define a programmer as "someone who can program" without defining what that skill is.

My working definition of "the skill of computer programming" is pragmatic, based on what it takes to create software effectively, in a time constraint, with attention to elimination of defects.

Like "the skill of dancing", the skill of programming encompasses a limitless landscape of related activities that one masters in varying degrees at different times.  The point I make is that for a Java programmer, to have a prejudice against understanding the very specification of the language is disempowering at best, and stupid at least.  For someone claiming to represent the interests of those learning Java, either for the first time or ongoingly, to put forward the notion that one should avoid learning how to read the spec is evil.

> So, here is a question for people who can program in Java, or can
> program in at least one other language and are learning Java:
> 
> Can you understand the JLS?

If the answer is, "No", then it's time to start learning how to.  

-- 
Lew

Back to comp.lang.java.help | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Enum basics Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-11-04 15:11 -0700
  Re: Enum basics "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-11-04 20:44 -0400
    Re: Enum basics Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-04 20:27 -0700
      Re: Enum basics "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-11-05 02:23 -0400
        Re: Enum basics Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-05 00:51 -0700
      Re: Enum basics Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-11-05 04:12 -0700
        Re: Enum basics Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-05 09:15 -0700
          Re: Enum basics Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-11-05 14:06 -0700
            Re: Enum basics Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-05 15:54 -0700
            Re: Enum basics Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-11-05 20:43 -0300
            Re: Enum basics markspace <-@.> - 2011-11-05 19:55 -0700
            Re: Enum basics Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-11-05 22:10 -0500
  Re: Enum basics Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-11-05 04:18 -0700

csiph-web