Path: csiph.com!x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net!usenet.pasdenom.info!aioe.org!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail From: Lew Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.help Subject: Re: Enum basics Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 15:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 66 Message-ID: <11821575.74.1320533652074.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pref15> References: <3bo8b7dd306f6pj50v2jk3t9704n1c0cjp@4ax.com> <21054701.30.1320463633638.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prog16> <6at9b7tui212h2jvfmdkka5antnsme1qjb@4ax.com> <16418512.328.1320509703473.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prap37> Reply-To: comp.lang.java.help@googlegroups.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 173.164.137.214 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: posting.google.com 1320533763 25338 127.0.0.1 (5 Nov 2011 22:56:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 22:56:03 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=173.164.137.214; posting-account=CP-lKQoAAAAGtB5diOuGlDQk0jIwmH0T User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-Google-Web-Client: true Xref: x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net comp.lang.java.help:1293 Patricia Shanahan wrote: > Lew wrote: > ... >> Contrary to the crap you put forward, Roedy, you don't have to be a >> "language lawyer" to understand the cited passages, either. Just a >> programmer. >=20 > Lew's claim seems to be that any programmer can read the JLS. Roedy's Actually, my claim is that any Java programmer *should* read the JLS. Like any other programming skill, understanding the specification requires = some practice and effort to learn. It's an effort that must be made. > claim seems to be that JLS reading is a specialized skill, distinct > from, and in addition to, general programming skill. To be a programmer requires more than being able to slavishly copy a for-lo= op into a method. It is an engineering skill pulling in a panoply of found= ational skills such as being able to reason from incomplete specifications,= knowing how to architect cooperating layers, ramping up independently on l= ibraries and technologies that one needs, understanding algorithmic behavio= rs such as runtime asymptotes, and many, many more skills that go into the = complex art of computer programming. > This is actually an interesting question. To me, the JLS seems the > clearest description of Java I have found, and is my go-to document when > I want to know anything about the core language, as distinct from the > libraries. >=20 > However, I had studied the theory of formal grammars and compiler > construction, worked on compilers, and read several other language > specifications before Java was invented. I may be a "language lawyer". >=20 > I'm interpreting "a programmer" as someone who can program, without > requiring any other skill. This question could easily become circular if > inability to read the JLS were treated as evidence of not being a > programmer. It is incomplete as you present it, and itself is circular already, and tri= vially so. You define a programmer as "someone who can program" without de= fining what that skill is. My working definition of "the skill of computer programming" is pragmatic, = based on what it takes to create software effectively, in a time constraint= , with attention to elimination of defects. Like "the skill of dancing", the skill of programming encompasses a limitle= ss landscape of related activities that one masters in varying degrees at d= ifferent times. The point I make is that for a Java programmer, to have a = prejudice against understanding the very specification of the language is d= isempowering at best, and stupid at least. For someone claiming to represe= nt the interests of those learning Java, either for the first time or ongoi= ngly, to put forward the notion that one should avoid learning how to read = the spec is evil. > So, here is a question for people who can program in Java, or can > program in at least one other language and are learning Java: >=20 > Can you understand the JLS? If the answer is, "No", then it's time to start learning how to. =20 --=20 Lew