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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #10270 > unrolled thread

Which standard?

Started byNomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com>
First post2012-03-21 15:13 +0100
Last post2012-03-27 19:33 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 222 — 28 participants

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Contents

  Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-21 15:13 +0100
    Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-21 10:37 -0500
      Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-21 20:23 +0100
        Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-22 13:34 -0500
          Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-26 20:40 +0200
            Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-26 15:00 -0500
              Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-26 11:18 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-27 02:20 +0200
            Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-27 10:10 +0000
              Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 08:31 -0500
              Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-27 17:08 +0200
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 11:31 -0500
                  Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 09:35 -0700
                    Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 11:47 -0500
                      Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 10:15 -0700
                        Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 12:33 -0500
          Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-26 21:00 +0200
            Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-26 13:17 -0700
              Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-26 11:24 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-27 17:07 +0200
            Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-27 00:54 +0100
      Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 14:09 -0700
    Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-21 15:47 +0000
      Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-21 20:13 +0100
        Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-21 15:07 -0700
        Re: Which standard? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-03-22 10:14 +0000
          Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-22 16:36 +0100
            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-22 08:47 -1000
              Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 15:19 +0100
                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-23 07:48 -0700
                Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-23 17:28 +0000
                  Re: Which standard? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-03-23 20:51 +0000
                    Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-24 00:47 +0000
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 08:40 -1000
                  Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-26 04:42 +0200
                Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-26 19:17 +0200
            Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-22 13:03 -0700
              Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 19:20 +0100
            Re: Which standard? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-03-22 21:15 +0000
            Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-22 17:54 -0400
              Re: Which standard? "The Other Rod Pemberton" <dontaskdonttell@pemberton.it> - 2012-03-23 18:12 +0100
                Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 20:39 -0400
                  Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 16:05 -1000
                    Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-23 23:11 -0700
                      Re: Which standard? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-03-24 09:15 +0100
                        Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 22:52 -1000
                          Re: Which standard? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-03-24 10:16 +0100
                        Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-24 11:25 -0700
                    Re: Which standard? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-24 04:17 -0700
                      Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-26 21:46 -0700
                        Re: Which standard? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-27 02:49 -0700
                          Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-27 22:45 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-23 23:06 -0700
                  Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-26 01:51 +0200
            Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-22 14:57 -0700
              Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-23 12:48 +0100
        Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-22 17:50 +0000
      Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 13:37 -0700
    Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-21 17:07 -0400
      Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-22 09:27 +0100
        Re: Which standard? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-22 12:06 -0700
        Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-22 19:19 -0400
          Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 13:02 +0100
      Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-22 08:17 -0700
        Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-22 08:25 -1000
          Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 21:50 +0100
            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 13:10 -1000
            Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-24 11:19 +0000
              Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-25 07:55 -0400
                Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-26 09:12 +0000
            Re: Which standard? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-24 04:06 -0700
          Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-27 21:03 +0200
    Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 22:28 +0100
      Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 16:36 -0700
        Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-22 05:15 -0400
          Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-22 12:16 +0000
          Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 01:26 +0100
            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-22 15:37 -1000
              Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-25 22:24 +0200
              Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-26 10:49 +0100
          Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 20:00 +0100
            Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 21:21 -0400
              Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 11:44 +0100
                Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-26 18:51 +0200
          Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 22:16 +0100
            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 13:21 -1000
              Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 01:33 +0100
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 16:06 -1000
                  Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 11:44 +0100
                Re: Which standard? Jan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk> - 2012-03-24 10:08 +0000
                  Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-24 14:31 +0000
            Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 21:24 -0400
              Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 11:54 +0100
                Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-24 17:25 -0400
                  Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-24 13:43 -1000
                  Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 01:43 +0100
                    Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-24 15:56 -1000
                      Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 22:49 +0200
                      Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-26 09:50 +0000
                    Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-25 09:18 +0100
                      Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-25 06:07 -0400
                      Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 22:42 +0200
                      Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-26 09:04 +0000
                        Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-26 04:39 -0500
                          Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-26 22:29 -0700
                        Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-26 18:09 +0000
                          Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-26 11:37 -0700
                            Re: Which standard? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-03-26 20:49 +0200
                              Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-26 13:22 -0700
                          Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-26 11:20 -0700
                            Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-27 11:59 +0000
                              Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 05:26 -0700
                                Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-29 00:10 +0100
                                  Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-29 00:51 -0700
                          Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-03-30 16:13 +0000
                            Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-30 13:01 -0500
                              Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-30 09:18 -1000
                                Re: Which standard? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-03-30 14:11 -0700
                              Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-31 08:18 -0500
                              Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-04-10 12:43 +0000
                                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 10:15 -0500
                                  Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-10 08:22 -1000
                                    Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 14:03 -0500
                                      Re: Which standard? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-04-10 12:17 -0700
                                        Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-10 09:26 -1000
                                          Re: Which standard? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-04-11 06:22 -0700
                                      Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-11 12:42 +0000
                                        Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-11 09:40 -0500
                                          Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-11 07:55 -0700
                                            Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-11 11:28 -0500
                                  Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-04-27 14:15 +0000
                                    Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-27 15:30 -0700
                                      Re: Which standard? vandys@vsta.org - 2012-04-27 23:34 +0000
                                        Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-27 17:25 -0700
                                    Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-28 04:13 -0500
                                    Re: Which standard? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2012-04-29 00:10 +0100
                                      Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-28 12:53 -1000
                                        Re: Which standard? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2012-04-29 01:06 +0100
                                          Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-28 13:43 -1000
                                            Re: Which standard? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2012-04-29 11:23 +0100
                                              Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-29 04:35 -0500
                                                Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-29 02:55 -0700
                                                  Re: Which standard? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2012-04-29 12:01 +0100
                                                  Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-29 05:17 -0500
                                                  Re: Which standard? awegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel) - 2012-04-29 14:11 +0200
                                                    Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-29 08:01 -1000
                                                      Re: Which standard? awegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel) - 2012-04-29 20:17 +0200
                                                      Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-29 11:18 -0700
                                                        Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-29 08:36 -1000
                                                          Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-29 11:57 -0700
                                                            Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-29 23:48 +0000
                                                            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-29 13:38 -1000
                                                      Re: Which standard? awegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel) - 2012-04-30 14:33 +0200
                                                        Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-30 07:33 -1000
                                                          Re: Which standard? awegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel) - 2012-04-30 19:47 +0200
                                                Re: Which standard? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-29 10:36 +0000
                                                  Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-29 11:40 -0500
                                                  Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-30 13:59 +0000
                                                    Re: Which standard? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-30 16:59 +0000
                                                      Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-05-01 07:38 +0100
                                                        Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-05-01 09:36 -0400
                                                          Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-05-02 10:30 +0000
                                                            Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 08:33 -0400
                                                      Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-02 14:07 +0000
                                                    Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-30 11:50 -0700
                                                    Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-30 15:27 -0700
                                                      Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-30 13:39 -1000
                                                      Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-02 14:24 +0000
                                                      Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-05-03 17:17 +0000
                                                        Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-03 11:26 -0700
                                                          Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-03 09:16 -1000
                                                            Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-05-04 12:56 +0000
                                                          Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-03 14:27 -0500
                                                            Re: Which standard? Jan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk> - 2012-05-04 01:56 +0100
                                                              Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-04 06:25 -0700
                                            Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-04-29 07:18 -0400
                                              Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-04-29 07:35 -0400
                                              Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-29 23:56 +0000
                                                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-29 16:43 -0700
                                                  Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-04-30 08:09 -0400
                                                    Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-30 08:16 -0500
                                                      Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-04-30 10:27 -0400
                                                    Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-30 06:19 -0700
                                                Re: Which standard? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-04-30 07:49 -0400
                                        Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-28 16:23 -0700
                                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-10 12:38 -0700
                                  Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-04-27 14:15 +0000
                                    Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-04-27 23:47 +0200
                                      Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-27 12:04 -1000
                                        Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-04-29 16:10 +0200
                                          Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-29 09:11 -0700
                                      Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-30 13:08 +0000
                            Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-03 09:27 +0000
                              Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-04-10 12:44 +0000
                                Re: Which standard? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-05-01 07:25 -0700
                                  Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-05-03 17:17 +0000
                    Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-25 05:47 -0400
                    Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-25 07:49 -0700
                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-24 15:07 -0700
            Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-24 05:44 -0500
        Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 19:54 +0100
          Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 21:52 -0400
            Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 12:13 +0100
              Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-24 06:24 -0500
                Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 13:37 +0100
                  Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-24 12:20 -0500
                  Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-24 17:24 -0400
          Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-24 14:18 +0000
        Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 22:33 +0100
        Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-26 03:25 +0200
        Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-25 21:40 -0700
      Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-22 04:15 -0500
      Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-22 13:02 +0100
    Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 08:51 -0700
    Re: Which standard? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-26 22:14 -0700
      Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-26 23:55 -0700
        Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 05:41 -0700
          Re: Which standard? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-27 08:45 -0700
          Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 01:42 +0200
            Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-31 13:46 +0000
          Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-27 22:51 -0700
          Re: Which standard? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 19:33 -0700

Page 8 of 12 — ← Prev page 1 … 6 7 [8] 9 10 … 12  Next page →


#11735

FromAndrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Date2012-04-29 04:35 -0500
Message-ID<_6CdnWdTP4v1lgDSnZ2dnUVZ_qidnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#11733
Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.remove.com> wrote:
> In comp.lang.forth, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
> 
>> See, this is why it can never be resolved, because the whole issue
>> is how people *think* about this operator: a precursor to IF, UNTIL
>> and WHILE, or a logical operation. Both viewpoints are equally
>> valid in a technical sense, both senses have a lot of history, and
>> it's hard to take a poll of the entire Forth community.
> 
> Then maybe better would be to leave it in present state - with 0= and INVERT
> - than to introduce confusion?

I think we're coming to that conclusion.  I was hoping that after many
years it would be possible to re-introduce NOT to the standard
language, but that appears not to be possible.

Andrew.

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#11736

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2012-04-29 02:55 -0700
Message-ID<7xhaw2n9p6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#11735
Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
> I think we're coming to that conclusion.  I was hoping that after many
> years it would be possible to re-introduce NOT to the standard
> language, but that appears not to be possible.

How about calling the two operations BOOL-NOT and COMPLEMENT.  They are
not so concise as 0= but I think their meaning is clear.  -IF (from
Colorforth, equivalent to 0= IF) is also nice.

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#11737

FromZbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com>
Date2012-04-29 12:01 +0100
Message-ID<slrnjpqbf3.475.zbigniew2011REMOVE@Tichy.myhome.org>
In reply to#11736
In comp.lang.forth, Paul Rubin wrote:

> How about calling the two operations BOOL-NOT and COMPLEMENT.  They are
> not so concise as 0= but I think their meaning is clear.

But does it really make sense to introduce "aliases" for "old" words?

> -IF (from Colorforth, equivalent to 0= IF) is also nice.

This looks better.
-- 
Forth is a preserver of health (Hippocrates)

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#11738

FromAndrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Date2012-04-29 05:17 -0500
Message-ID<i_KdndZEQYnKiADSnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#11736
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>> I think we're coming to that conclusion.  I was hoping that after many
>> years it would be possible to re-introduce NOT to the standard
>> language, but that appears not to be possible.
> 
> How about calling the two operations BOOL-NOT and COMPLEMENT.  They are
> not so concise as 0= but I think their meaning is clear.

The meanings of  0=  and  INVERT  are already clear.

> -IF (from Colorforth, equivalent to 0= IF) is also nice.

It is.

Andrew.

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#11742

Fromawegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel)
Date2012-04-29 14:11 +0200
Message-ID<1kjbg7w.1ii32ps11vp6yN%awegel@arcor.de>
In reply to#11736
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
> > I think we're coming to that conclusion.  I was hoping that after many
> > years it would be possible to re-introduce NOT to the standard
> > language, but that appears not to be possible.
> 
> How about calling the two operations BOOL-NOT and COMPLEMENT.  They are
> not so concise as 0= but I think their meaning is clear.

Hmm - howbout NON and COM?
(OTOH, i don't really have a problem with 0= and INVERT)

>  -IF (from
> Colorforth, equivalent to 0= IF) is also nice.

AFAIK -IF is equivalent to DUP 0< IF

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#11749

From"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Date2012-04-29 08:01 -1000
Message-ID<_JKdnRX8NJl_HADSnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#11742
On 4/29/12 2:11 AM, Alex Wegel wrote:
> Paul Rubin<no.email@nospam.invalid>  wrote:
...
>>   -IF (from
>> Colorforth, equivalent to 0= IF) is also nice.
>
> AFAIK -IF is equivalent to DUP 0<  IF

No. This word from colorForth has been around Chuck's systems for a long 
time. It is pronounced "not-if" and the symbol that looks like a minus 
to you is the closest 7-bit ASCII can get to a "not" symbol. -IF has 
historically been DUP 0= IF ever since the early 70's.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#11751

Fromawegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel)
Date2012-04-29 20:17 +0200
Message-ID<1kjbxez.bkia2ih0lvixN%awegel@arcor.de>
In reply to#11749
Elizabeth D. Rather <erather@forth.com> wrote:

> On 4/29/12 2:11 AM, Alex Wegel wrote:
> > Paul Rubin<no.email@nospam.invalid>  wrote:
> ...
> >>   -IF (from
> >> Colorforth, equivalent to 0= IF) is also nice.
> >
> > AFAIK -IF is equivalent to DUP 0<  IF
> 
> No. This word from colorForth has been around Chuck's systems for a long
> time. It is pronounced "not-if" and the symbol that looks like a minus
> to you is the closest 7-bit ASCII can get to a "not" symbol. -IF has 
> historically been DUP 0= IF ever since the early 70's.

So there's some confusion with -IF too - to quote from C.Moores website
(pentium colorforth):

-if     Jump to 'then' if not negative

..or from ColorForth2.0a.pdf:

5.1.13 -if (SF - SF) Macro 
Jumps if previous statement sets sign flag to 0.  Sign flag is not reset
or consumed. 

Cheers,
Alex

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#11752

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2012-04-29 11:18 -0700
Message-ID<7xlile5rlr.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#11749
"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
> -IF has historically been DUP 0= IF ever since the early 70's.

I see.  It does sound a little weird that IF pops the stack but -IF does
not.  But I guess in the nonzero case you probably want to do something
with the value.

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#11753

From"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Date2012-04-29 08:36 -1000
Message-ID<ANGdnWErTYOuFwDSnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#11752
On 4/29/12 8:18 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> "Elizabeth D. Rather"<erather@forth.com>  writes:
>> -IF has historically been DUP 0= IF ever since the early 70's.
>
> I see.  It does sound a little weird that IF pops the stack but -IF does
> not.  But I guess in the nonzero case you probably want to do something
> with the value.

Chuck's IF instructions (including plain IF, for the past some years) no 
longer discard the stack item. I'm not sure how that works out in 
practice; maybe saves more DUPs than it costs DROPs, maybe not. It's 
part of his current philosophy of not bothering to maintain a "clean" 
stack because his stacks are circular.

It's certainly contrary to common practice and all standards to date.

Chuck can do that because he doesn't care about portability or 
standards, but if 200x were to contemplate this there would be terrible 
problems with the name, and without circular stacks would be problematic.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#11755

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2012-04-29 11:57 -0700
Message-ID<7xbomae587.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#11753
"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
> Chuck's IF instructions (including plain IF, for the past some years)
> no longer discard the stack item. 

Wow, I didn't realize that at all, despite spending hours looking for
ways to bum instructions from GA144 code (that I"ve obviously never
tried to run).  

> I'm not sure how that works out in practice; maybe saves more DUPs
> than it costs DROPs, maybe not. It's part of his current philosophy of
> not bothering to maintain a "clean" stack because his stacks are circular.

I thought based on the recommendations of "Thinking Forth" that the
practice of consuming stack items was to help keep bigger programs
uniform for maintainability, even if it cost a few instructions.  On
Chuck's current cpu's, every instruction slot is valuable, and at the
same time the programs are necessarily small.  So maybe the tradeoff
favors giving up uniformity to save a slot here or there.

> Chuck can do that because he doesn't care about portability or
> standards, but if 200x were to contemplate this there would be
> terrible problems with the name, and without circular stacks would be
> problematic.

It's kind of droll that the GA144 uses both colorforth and eforth (in
its VM), if those have differing treatments of IF.  It also uses
Polyforth, whichever way that goes.

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#11758

FromAlbert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>
Date2012-04-29 23:48 +0000
Message-ID<m39m4b.bbw@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#11755
In article <7xbomae587.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
Paul Rubin  <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>> Chuck's IF instructions (including plain IF, for the past some years)
>> no longer discard the stack item.
>
>Wow, I didn't realize that at all, despite spending hours looking for
>ways to bum instructions from GA144 code (that I"ve obviously never
>tried to run).
>
>> I'm not sure how that works out in practice; maybe saves more DUPs
>> than it costs DROPs, maybe not. It's part of his current philosophy of
>> not bothering to maintain a "clean" stack because his stacks are circular.
>
>I thought based on the recommendations of "Thinking Forth" that the
>practice of consuming stack items was to help keep bigger programs
>uniform for maintainability, even if it cost a few instructions.  On
>Chuck's current cpu's, every instruction slot is valuable, and at the
>same time the programs are necessarily small.  So maybe the tradeoff
>favors giving up uniformity to save a slot here or there.

I found the colorforth instruction set much more comprehensible
if I considered it as assembler instructions. That aspect is one
of them. YMMV.

>> Chuck can do that because he doesn't care about portability or
>> standards, but if 200x were to contemplate this there would be
>> terrible problems with the name, and without circular stacks would be
>> problematic.
>
>It's kind of droll that the GA144 uses both colorforth and eforth (in
>its VM), if those have differing treatments of IF.  It also uses
>Polyforth, whichever way that goes.

You can always tell because eforth is colorless. I don't
confuse a colored and a colorless IF.

Groetjes Albert

--
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#11760

From"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Date2012-04-29 13:38 -1000
Message-ID<1emdnUDUZrR4TQDSnZ2dnUVZ_qWdnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#11755
On 4/29/12 8:57 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> "Elizabeth D. Rather"<erather@forth.com>  writes:
>> Chuck's IF instructions (including plain IF, for the past some years)
>> no longer discard the stack item.
>
> Wow, I didn't realize that at all, despite spending hours looking for
> ways to bum instructions from GA144 code (that I"ve obviously never
> tried to run).
>
>> I'm not sure how that works out in practice; maybe saves more DUPs
>> than it costs DROPs, maybe not. It's part of his current philosophy of
>> not bothering to maintain a "clean" stack because his stacks are circular.
>
> I thought based on the recommendations of "Thinking Forth" that the
> practice of consuming stack items was to help keep bigger programs
> uniform for maintainability, even if it cost a few instructions.  On
> Chuck's current cpu's, every instruction slot is valuable, and at the
> same time the programs are necessarily small.  So maybe the tradeoff
> favors giving up uniformity to save a slot here or there.

In general Forth programming, following the rule of every word 
"destroying its arguments and leaving only explicit results" is 
important for keeping a clean stack and ensuring that words don't 
inadvertently conceal arguments from previous words not affected by this 
one, not to mention the fact that unconstrained stack growth leads to 
problems!

Chuck is more concerned with efficient chip design and throughput than 
programming aesthetics. The stack on his chips is circular, typically 
with 8 elements, so old stuff gets overwritten.

>> Chuck can do that because he doesn't care about portability or
>> standards, but if 200x were to contemplate this there would be
>> terrible problems with the name, and without circular stacks would be
>> problematic.
>
> It's kind of droll that the GA144 uses both colorforth and eforth (in
> its VM), if those have differing treatments of IF.  It also uses
> Polyforth, whichever way that goes.

colorForth for the GA144 is basically its assembly language, plus a few 
macros. I don't know what eForth and polyForth compile (not familiar 
with their GA144 implementations), but both have a standard IF normally.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#11772

Fromawegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel)
Date2012-04-30 14:33 +0200
Message-ID<1kjd9kq.43dosgx01msjN%awegel@arcor.de>
In reply to#11749
Elizabeth D. Rather <erather@forth.com> wrote:

> On 4/29/12 2:11 AM, Alex Wegel wrote:
> > Paul Rubin<no.email@nospam.invalid>  wrote:
> ...
> >>   -IF (from
> >> Colorforth, equivalent to 0= IF) is also nice.
> >
> > AFAIK -IF is equivalent to DUP 0<  IF
> 
> No. This word from colorForth has been around Chuck's systems for a long
> time. It is pronounced "not-if" and the symbol that looks like a minus
> to you is the closest 7-bit ASCII can get to a "not" symbol.

Are you really* sure about that?
All i find online now is C.M.'s definition for Colorforth (where minus
means minus, not not, as i stated).

There are other possibilities anyway: 0IF, 0=IF, !IF, ~IF, or as i used
to prefer: UNLESS.

> -IF has 
> historically been DUP 0= IF ever since the early 70's.

Are you sure - especially about the DUP?

If it was a synonym for 0= IF, or even for DUP 0= IF, then this notion
seems to have gone with the 70's. (So you might be right about it being
historical, though.)

Cheers,
Alex W.

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#11790

From"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Date2012-04-30 07:33 -1000
Message-ID<j-OdnSUbAYB-UQPSnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#11772
On 4/30/12 2:33 AM, Alex Wegel wrote:
> Elizabeth D. Rather<erather@forth.com>  wrote:
>
>> On 4/29/12 2:11 AM, Alex Wegel wrote:
>>> Paul Rubin<no.email@nospam.invalid>   wrote:
>> ...
>>>>    -IF (from
>>>> Colorforth, equivalent to 0= IF) is also nice.
>>>
>>> AFAIK -IF is equivalent to DUP 0<   IF
>>
>> No. This word from colorForth has been around Chuck's systems for a long
>> time. It is pronounced "not-if" and the symbol that looks like a minus
>> to you is the closest 7-bit ASCII can get to a "not" symbol.
>
> Are you really* sure about that?
> All i find online now is C.M.'s definition for Colorforth (where minus
> means minus, not not, as i stated).

By itself, it's 'minus'. As a prefix, it's often 'not'.

> There are other possibilities anyway: 0IF, 0=IF, !IF, ~IF, or as i used
> to prefer: UNLESS.
>
>> -IF has
>> historically been DUP 0= IF ever since the early 70's.
>
> Are you sure - especially about the DUP?
>
> If it was a synonym for 0= IF, or even for DUP 0= IF, then this notion
> seems to have gone with the 70's. (So you might be right about it being
> historical, though.)

Well, I'm sure usage differs around this, as it's never been 
standardized in any sense. That's what I remember.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#11791

Fromawegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel)
Date2012-04-30 19:47 +0200
Message-ID<1kjdqhl.3ml5fq1k4kh3vN%awegel@arcor.de>
In reply to#11790
Elizabeth D. Rather <erather@forth.com> wrote:

> On 4/30/12 2:33 AM, Alex Wegel wrote:
> > Elizabeth D. Rather<erather@forth.com>  wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/29/12 2:11 AM, Alex Wegel wrote:
> >>> Paul Rubin<no.email@nospam.invalid>   wrote:
> >> ...
> >>>>    -IF (from
> >>>> Colorforth, equivalent to 0= IF) is also nice.
> >>>
> >>> AFAIK -IF is equivalent to DUP 0<   IF
> >>
> >> No. This word from colorForth has been around Chuck's systems for a long
> >> time. It is pronounced "not-if" and the symbol that looks like a minus
> >> to you is the closest 7-bit ASCII can get to a "not" symbol.
> >
> > Are you really* sure about that?
> > All i find online now is C.M.'s definition for Colorforth (where minus
> > means minus, not not, as i stated).
> 
> By itself, it's 'minus'. As a prefix, it's often 'not'.

Sure, but the talk was specifically about the "-IF from Colorforth",
where the "-" stands for "negative". Never mind.

Cheers,
Alex

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#11739

FromstephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc)
Date2012-04-29 10:36 +0000
Message-ID<4f9d18f2.313007082@192.168.0.50>
In reply to#11735
On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 04:35:36 -0500, Andrew Haley
<andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:

>I think we're coming to that conclusion.  I was hoping that after many
>years it would be possible to re-introduce NOT to the standard
>language, but that appears not to be possible.

The problem is that nobody (including MPE) removed their version
of NOT from their implementations - it was perfectly legal to
leave it in.

I have long believed that marking words as obsolete is not enough.

Stephen

-- 
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

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#11748

FromAndrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Date2012-04-29 11:40 -0500
Message-ID<YvWdnd1BNs-a8gDSnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#11739
Stephen Pelc <stephenXXX@mpeforth.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 04:35:36 -0500, Andrew Haley
> <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
> 
>>I think we're coming to that conclusion.  I was hoping that after many
>>years it would be possible to re-introduce NOT to the standard
>>language, but that appears not to be possible.
> 
> The problem is that nobody (including MPE) removed their version
> of NOT from their implementations - it was perfectly legal to
> leave it in.
> 
> I have long believed that marking words as obsolete is not enough.

I'm sure you're right: FORGET proved that.

Andrew.

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#11779

Fromanton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Date2012-04-30 13:59 +0000
Message-ID<2012Apr30.155927@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
In reply to#11739
stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) writes:
>The problem is that nobody (including MPE) removed their version
>of NOT from their implementations - it was perfectly legal to
>leave it in.

Gforth never contained NOT, but then we only started after it was
clear that NOT was not in ANS Forth.

>I have long believed that marking words as obsolete is not enough.

NOT was not made obsolete.  It is not in Forth-94 at all.

So not standardizing a word is obviously not a way to reserve the name
for future use.

One approach would have been to mark NOT as reserved word name, so
that systems providing NOT would be non-standard.  That might have
cooled the usage down enough to allow re-standardization now, but OTOH
there would then be no common practice.

And looking at the discussion, the problem is that there is no
consensus what NOT should mean, so existing implementations do not
come into play anyway (we already disagree before we come to that).

IMO the current approach works quite well: 0= is very explicit about
its meaning, and INVERT, too (to a lesser degree, though).  Why use
NOT?

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2011: http://www.euroforth.org/ef11/

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#11789

FromstephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc)
Date2012-04-30 16:59 +0000
Message-ID<4f9ec267.421924235@192.168.0.50>
In reply to#11779
On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:59:27 GMT, anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at
(Anton Ertl) wrote:

>stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) writes:
>>The problem is that nobody (including MPE) removed their version
>>of NOT from their implementations - it was perfectly legal to
>>leave it in.
>
>Gforth never contained NOT, but then we only started after it was
>clear that NOT was not in ANS Forth.
>
>>I have long believed that marking words as obsolete is not enough.
>
>NOT was not made obsolete.  It is not in Forth-94 at all.

I think that you are missing the point.

Words that the TC (or community) believe should die out, e.g. NOT or
FORGET, need to be marked in such a way that implementers make an
effort to remove them. If we don't do this, there will be discussions
about NOT in another twenty years, nearly forty years after NOT was
removed from a standards document.

A possible wording is to say that systems containing such words
are non-standard. This gives us a formal way to get rid of words
that only takes two iterations
1) make word obsolete
2) make systems containing them non-standard

>One approach would have been to mark NOT as reserved word name, so
>that systems providing NOT would be non-standard.  That might have
>cooled the usage down enough to allow re-standardization now, but OTOH
>there would then be no common practice.

I agree with the first sentence. As for the second sentence, lack
of common practice (as opposed to common name) indicates lack of
need.

>And looking at the discussion, the problem is that there is no
>consensus what NOT should mean, so existing implementations do not
>come into play anyway (we already disagree before we come to that).

It really does not matter what NOT "ought" to mean. In the current
situation, using that name is irresponsible for portability.

>IMO the current approach works quite well: 0= is very explicit about
>its meaning, and INVERT, too (to a lesser degree, though).  Why use
>NOT?

I agree.

Stephen


-- 
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

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#11797

From"Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk>
Date2012-05-01 07:38 +0100
Message-ID<op.wdl91m1osu5d0p@david>
In reply to#11789
Stephen Pelc wrote:
>
> Anton Ertl wrote:
>>
>> One approach would have been to mark NOT as reserved word name, so
>> that systems providing NOT would be non-standard.  That might have
>> cooled the usage down enough to allow re-standardization now, but OTOH
>> there would then be no common practice.
>
> I agree with the first sentence. As for the second sentence, lack
> of common practice (as opposed to common name) indicates lack of
> need.

I did argue for reserving NOT in the '94 document but was drowned out
by the chorus of "let's not go there again".

A similar problem exists for " (quote) which was also dropped from
Forth-94.

The same problem occurred when I suggested reserving the names of the
obsolete words that we dropped from Forth200x.

-- 
Peter Knaggs

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