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"A Forth OS In 46 Bytes"

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  "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" Alexis <flexibeast@gmail.com> - 2025-05-27 22:33 +1000
    Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2025-05-27 18:45 +0000
      Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" minforth@gmx.net (minforth) - 2025-05-27 20:28 +0000
    Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2025-05-28 11:15 +1000
      Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2025-05-28 04:02 +0000
        Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-05-28 07:56 -0700
        Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2025-05-29 13:57 +1000
          Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-29 06:47 +0000
            Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2025-05-29 00:22 -0700
              Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-29 08:24 +0000
                Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2025-05-29 13:02 +0200
                Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2025-05-31 00:04 -0700
                  Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-31 10:15 +0000
                  Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2025-05-31 13:58 +0200
              Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> - 2025-06-03 11:31 +0000
                Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2025-06-03 04:39 -0700
                  Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> - 2025-06-06 12:00 +0000
                    Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2025-06-06 17:02 -0700
                      Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> - 2025-06-08 19:41 +0000
                        Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" zbigniew2011@gmail.com (LIT) - 2025-06-08 20:41 +0000
                          Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-06-08 22:26 +0000
                            Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" zbigniew2011@gmail.com (LIT) - 2025-06-08 22:58 +0000
                              Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-06-09 06:27 +0000
                                Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2025-06-09 12:52 +0200
                                  Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-06-09 15:52 +0000
                                    Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2025-06-10 11:31 +1000
                                  Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2025-06-10 14:03 -0700
                        Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2025-06-10 14:09 -0700
                          non-mainstream web (browsers) Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-08-09 14:05 +0000
                            Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-09 19:53 +0000
                              Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 08:53 -0700
                                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-11 21:51 +0000
                                  Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 14:57 -0700
                                    Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-13 18:43 +0000
                                      Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 12:14 -0700
                                        Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2025-08-13 12:48 -0700
                                          standards Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-08-24 09:30 +0000
                                            Re: standards sjack@dontemail.me (sjack) - 2025-08-24 16:05 +0000
                                        Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-15 15:14 +0000
                                          Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 09:03 -0700
                                            Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-16 23:36 +0000
                                              Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-17 07:09 +0000
                                              Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-18 10:45 -0700
                                                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-18 23:25 +0000
                                                  Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-19 08:14 -0700
                                                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-19 21:58 +0000
                                                  Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-20 00:39 +0000
                                                    Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-25 03:24 +0000
                                                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) "B. Pym" <Nobody447095@here-nor-there.org> - 2025-08-24 14:42 +0000
                                                  Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2025-08-24 19:41 +0200
                      Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> - 2025-06-08 19:41 +0000
                Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" zbigniew2011@gmail.com (LIT) - 2025-06-03 12:07 +0000
                  Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> - 2025-06-06 12:00 +0000
                    Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" zbigniew2011@gmail.com (LIT) - 2025-06-06 13:21 +0000
                      Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-06 07:54 -0700
                        Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> - 2025-06-07 12:47 +0000
                        Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> - 2025-06-07 12:47 +0000
                          Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-09 08:20 -0700
                  Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" sjack@dontemail.me (sjack) - 2025-06-06 14:37 +0000
                    Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2025-06-07 00:55 +1000
                    Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" zbigniew2011@gmail.com (LIT) - 2025-06-06 18:13 +0000
              Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2026-01-07 20:31 +0000
            Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2025-05-29 08:32 +0042
              Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2025-05-29 01:12 -0700
            Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2025-05-29 20:09 +1000
            Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" sjack@dontemail.me (sjack) - 2025-05-29 13:50 +0000
              Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2025-05-30 12:51 +1000
      Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" Anthk NM <anthk@disroot.org> - 2025-12-12 10:43 +0000
        Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" minforth <minforth@gmx.net> - 2025-12-12 15:05 +0100
          Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-12-22 11:59 +0000
            Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-12-22 14:29 +0000
          Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2026-01-06 22:39 +0000
    Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-06-04 17:48 +0100

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#133528 — "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes"

Thought this community might be interested in this:

"[Philippe] doesn’t take a strong stance on whether this should
technically qualify as a Forth implementation, given that the base
implementation lacks stacks, dictionaries, and the ability to define
words. However, it does have an outer and inner interpreter, the ability
to compile and execute code, and most importantly, 'the simplicity and
hacky feeling of Forth.'"

-- https://hackaday.com/2025/05/27/a-forth-os-in-46-bytes/


Alexis.

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#133530

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

Alexis <flexibeast@gmail.com> spake the secret code
<875xhmdyhp.fsf@gmail.com> thusly:

>-- https://hackaday.com/2025/05/27/a-forth-os-in-46-bytes/

IMO, it's not a FORTH implementation, but a simple boot monitor that
allows you to poke bytes into memory and then jump to a location.
Such minimal monitors have been around forever and this one is simply
squished down into 46 bytes by elminating all human factors in the
interface.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
            The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals-wiki.org>
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

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#133532

On Tue, 27 May 2025 18:45:34 +0000, Richard wrote:

> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>
> Alexis <flexibeast@gmail.com> spake the secret code
> <875xhmdyhp.fsf@gmail.com> thusly:
>
>>-- https://hackaday.com/2025/05/27/a-forth-os-in-46-bytes/

The comments on this page say it all

--

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#133533

On 27/05/2025 10:33 pm, Alexis wrote:
> 
> Thought this community might be interested in this:
> 
> "[Philippe] doesn’t take a strong stance on whether this should
> technically qualify as a Forth implementation, given that the base
> implementation lacks stacks, dictionaries, and the ability to define
> words. However, it does have an outer and inner interpreter, the ability
> to compile and execute code, and most importantly, 'the simplicity and
> hacky feeling of Forth.'"
> 
> -- https://hackaday.com/2025/05/27/a-forth-os-in-46-bytes/

Interesting in that Forth still has a name and reputation with which folks
want to be associated.

Whether the reputation is deserved is another matter.  A reason Moore gives
for leaving Forth Inc was 'Forth started simple, gradually accreting layers
of complexity and that became the culture'.  If there's a gene for simplicity
it hasn't passed down the generations.  We admire the Diogenes of the world.
Endlessly listen to their admonishments.  But God forbid actually living that.

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#133534

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> spake the secret code
<e0b2f1d0a67ca321c4f69f66bef506de768eac9f@i2pn2.org> thusly:

>[...] A reason Moore gives
>for leaving Forth Inc was 'Forth started simple, gradually accreting layers
>of complexity and that became the culture'.  If there's a gene for simplicity
>it hasn't passed down the generations.

While this is a nice story, it seems to assume that FORTH exists in a
timeless vacuum and that it's still 1970.  Microcontrollers today have
more resources than a PDP-11/70 from 1975.  As much as the appetite
of the hardware has increased, the appetite for features from
customers has increased even further.  The more compute power is put
into the hands of customers, the larger their appetite for features
and tasks to be put under control of the computer.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
            The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals-wiki.org>
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

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#133538

On Wed, 28 May 2025 04:02:19 -0000 (UTC)
legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) wrote:

> Microcontrollers today have more resources than a PDP-11/70 from
> 1975.  As much as the appetite of the hardware has increased, the
> appetite for features from customers has increased even further.

But then, the fewer resources consumed by the underlying framework, the
more are free for the actual application that meets those customer
needs. Of course there's a balance to be struck, but a spendthrift
attitude towards resources will, sooner or later, lead to a crunch that
might've been avoided otherwise.

(Things are also gonna get *real* interesting when Moore's Law finally
hits the wall with those pesky laws of physics that say things like "you
can't fit an infinite amount of stuff in a finite space without
creating a black hole" and "but also distance imposes hard limits on
signal propagation times" and "and also basic thermodynamics means work
generates waste heat, which has hard limits on dissipation.")

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#133539

On 28/05/2025 2:02 pm, Richard wrote:
> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
> 
> dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> spake the secret code
> <e0b2f1d0a67ca321c4f69f66bef506de768eac9f@i2pn2.org> thusly:
> 
>> [...] A reason Moore gives
>> for leaving Forth Inc was 'Forth started simple, gradually accreting layers
>> of complexity and that became the culture'.  If there's a gene for simplicity
>> it hasn't passed down the generations.
> 
> While this is a nice story, it seems to assume that FORTH exists in a
> timeless vacuum and that it's still 1970.  Microcontrollers today have
> more resources than a PDP-11/70 from 1975.  As much as the appetite
> of the hardware has increased, the appetite for features from
> customers has increased even further.  The more compute power is put
> into the hands of customers, the larger their appetite for features
> and tasks to be put under control of the computer.

Are customers driving obsolescence - or it's forced on them by manufacturers?
I could go for 10 years without upgrading phones, computers etc.  But I'm not
given the chance.

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#133540

dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:
>Are customers driving obsolescence - or it's forced on them by manufacturers?

How?

>I could go for 10 years without upgrading phones, computers etc.  But I'm not
>given the chance.

My phone is from 2009.  Nobody forces me to abandon it.  What chance
are you not given.

I recently updated much of my PC after 9 years, but not because I was
forced to.  In our office we tend to use the machines for 15-20 years.
E.g., our web server was bought in 2021 and replaced one from 2005.
But the 2005-vintage machine is still there and can be used when the
need arises.

What takes the chance from you to use your hardware for longer if you
want to?

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023 proceedings: http://www.euroforth.org/ef23/papers/
EuroForth 2024 proceedings: http://www.euroforth.org/ef24/papers/

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#133541

anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
> My phone is from 2009.  Nobody forces me to abandon it.  What chance
> are you not given.

You can't use a 2009 phone in the US.  All the 2G and 3G networks are
shut down.  Even my old 2016 phone was very marginal (I had to install
some kind of unreliable patch to get it to use LTE for voice) and I
upgraded to a 2023 phone that is pretty good.  

> E.g., our web server was bought in 2021 and replaced one from 2005.
> But the 2005-vintage machine is still there and can be used when the
> need arises.

For servers you can run pretty much the same software as before, but on
the client side you have to use web browsers to get by in today's world,
and those browsers have to run awful bloaty Javascript monstrosities
that are on everyone's web sites now.  It used to be Microsoft Word
driving a "Wintel" upgrade loop, but now it's the web, and it's harder
to escape.  I think my laptop in 2005 was a Pentium 3 with 512MB of ram.
It would be almost unusable now.

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#133544

Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes:
>anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>> My phone is from 2009.  Nobody forces me to abandon it.  What chance
>> are you not given.
>
>You can't use a 2009 phone in the US.  All the 2G and 3G networks are
>shut down.

According to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2G#Past_2G_networks>,
T-Mobile commenced the shutdown of 2G on 9 Feb 2025, so you certainly
could use a 2009-vintage phone until then.  Unfortunately, I don't see
a list of present 2G providers; you might be able to continue to use a
2009-vintage phone by switching providers.  Looking further around, I
read that some people think that T-Mobile was the last 2G provider in
the USA.

Anyway, 2G is alive and well around here (Austria).  3G is a different
story, though.  Another reason not to get something newer before I
have to.

>For servers you can run pretty much the same software as before, but on
>the client side you have to use web browsers to get by in today's world,
>and those browsers have to run awful bloaty Javascript monstrosities
>that are on everyone's web sites now.

On my laptop I have a web browser running that has JavaScript enabled,
with hundreds of open tabs.  On this laptop currently 11GB of ram are
used.  I am sure it could run in 8GB using some swap space (and maybe
closing some tabs); my system from 2008 could accomodate at least 8GB
of RAM. probably 16GB; my system from 2015 could accomodate at least
64GB RAM, probably 128GB.

On my desktop I have JavaScript disabled.  There are lots of websites
the work fine without JavaScript.  And many of those that don't work
fine without JavaScript are a disappointment with JavaScript, too.

>I think my laptop in 2005 was a Pentium 3 with 512MB of ram.
>It would be almost unusable now.

The Pentium 3 was introduced in 1999, with new models introduced up to
2003.  As for using it, you might look at
<https://medium.com/@techrefreshing02/low-on-ram-try-these-5-lightweight-linux-distros-under-512mb-55e689ada854>

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023 proceedings: http://www.euroforth.org/ef23/papers/
EuroForth 2024 proceedings: http://www.euroforth.org/ef24/papers/

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#133548

In article <2025May29.102452@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>,
Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
<SNIP>
>On my desktop I have JavaScript disabled.  There are lots of websites
>the work fine without JavaScript.  And many of those that don't work
>fine without JavaScript are a disappointment with JavaScript, too.

So true. Websites can only be dangerous if you have JavaScript enabled.
JavaScript is a carte blanche to run whatever code in your computer,
with the users privileges. https sites are "trusted", that means
that the communication is secure, not that there is no malicious
software present.

>
>>I think my laptop in 2005 was a Pentium 3 with 512MB of ram.
>>It would be almost unusable now.
>
>The Pentium 3 was introduced in 1999, with new models introduced up to
>2003.  As for using it, you might look at
><https://medium.com/@techrefreshing02/low-on-ram-try-these-5-lightweight-linux-distros-under-512mb-55e689ada854>

My Toshiba Windows XP (2000) is perfectly usable. I dropped it one too many times,
and the built in midi expander doesn't work any more, because I poked
in the innards.
>
>- anton
-- 
Temu exploits Christians: (Disclaimer, only 10 apostles)
Last Supper Acrylic Suncatcher - 15Cm Round Stained Glass- Style Wall
Art For Home, Office And Garden Decor - Perfect For Windows, Bars,
And Gifts For Friends Family And Colleagues.

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#133552

anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
> T-Mobile commenced the shutdown of 2G on 9 Feb 2025...

I'm on T-mobile and my old phone definitely stopped working when they
shut off 3G here.  Is it possible that the phone didn't have 2G?  I have
some other old phones I could try.

> On my laptop I have a web browser running that has JavaScript enabled,
> with hundreds of open tabs.  On this laptop currently 11GB of ram are
> used.  I am sure it could run in 8GB using some swap space

Yes, 8GB isn't bad at all, 4GB works ok, but with 1GB it's a problem.

>>I think my laptop in 2005 was a Pentium 3 with 512MB of ram.
>>It would be almost unusable now.
>
> The Pentium 3 was introduced in 1999, with new models introduced up to
> 2003.

I probably bought it before 2003.  The one after that had a Core 2 and
4GB(?), and I think I got it in 2007.  Yes, by 2015, stuff was almost as
good as stuff made now.  I'm currently using a 2013-era machine (Core
i5) though I got it secondhand, more recently.  It's working ok and I
don't have any pressing need to upgrade.  When I want to do something
compute heavy, I use remote servers.

>  As for using it, you might look at ...

I can run older and smaller distros on those machines reasonably well, I
think.  That's fine for text editing but it's not so feasible to browse
the web with them.  It's also hard to get PATA solid state disks for
them, so they'd still have spinny drives of quite low capacity by
today's standards.  The main use I could think of for them is as console
terminals for otherwise headless machines.

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#133554

Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes:
>anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>> T-Mobile commenced the shutdown of 2G on 9 Feb 2025...
>
>I'm on T-mobile and my old phone definitely stopped working when they
>shut off 3G here.  Is it possible that the phone didn't have 2G?

Possibly, or 2G only on the same frequencies as 3G, and those were
then repurposed.

>I can run older and smaller distros on those machines reasonably well, I
>think.  That's fine for text editing but it's not so feasible to browse
>the web with them.

That probably depends on the part of the web that you want to browse.

>It's also hard to get PATA solid state disks for
>them

In the meantime, yes.  I have an iBook G4 (from 2004) that killed two
HDDs, so I eventually replaced it with an SSD.  At that time (maybe
2010) PATA SSDs were available.  Some still are
<https://geizhals.at/?cat=hdssd&xf=4832_16>, at the sizes of the time,
and also near the prices of the time
<https://geizhals.at/?phist=898986&age=9999>.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2023 proceedings: http://www.euroforth.org/ef23/papers/
EuroForth 2024 proceedings: http://www.euroforth.org/ef24/papers/

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#133557

In article <87o6v91csh.fsf@nightsong.com>,
Paul Rubin  <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
<SNIP>
>I can run older and smaller distros on those machines reasonably well, I
>think.  That's fine for text editing but it's not so feasible to browse
>the web with them.  It's also hard to get PATA solid state disks for
>them, so they'd still have spinny drives of quite low capacity by
>today's standards.  The main use I could think of for them is as console
>terminals for otherwise headless machines.

M2 SSD disk fit on PCI express extension boards. As long as you have
a desk top. Installation is not as easy compared to spinning disks.

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Temu exploits Christians: (Disclaimer, only 10 apostles)
Last Supper Acrylic Suncatcher - 15Cm Round Stained Glass- Style Wall
Art For Home, Office And Garden Decor - Perfect For Windows, Bars,
And Gifts For Friends Family And Colleagues.

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#133574

On 2025-05-29, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>> My phone is from 2009.  Nobody forces me to abandon it.  What chance
>> are you not given.
>
> You can't use a 2009 phone in the US.  All the 2G and 3G networks are
> shut down.  Even my old 2016 phone was very marginal (I had to install
> some kind of unreliable patch to get it to use LTE for voice) and I
> upgraded to a 2023 phone that is pretty good.  
>
>> E.g., our web server was bought in 2021 and replaced one from 2005.
>> But the 2005-vintage machine is still there and can be used when the
>> need arises.
>
> For servers you can run pretty much the same software as before, but on
> the client side you have to use web browsers to get by in today's world,
> and those browsers have to run awful bloaty Javascript monstrosities
> that are on everyone's web sites now.  It used to be Microsoft Word
> driving a "Wintel" upgrade loop, but now it's the web, and it's harder
> to escape.  I think my laptop in 2005 was a Pentium 3 with 512MB of ram.
> It would be almost unusable now.

Your laptop with GNU/Linux/OpenBSD would be perfectly fine
for tons of tasks:

- Links/Dillo Mainline as a browser 
  - Dillectory: https://alex.envs.net/dillectory/

- Gopher and gopher://magical.fish and gopher://sdf.org
- MPV + yt-dlp, max 480p or 360p.
- Mocp ofr music
- SLRN for this
- IRC+Bitlbee-libpurple for IRC and IM
- Abiword/Ted + GNUMeric + Gnuplot
- PFE runs pretty well as a Forth, altough I hate it's block handling

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#133575

anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> writes:
> - Links/Dillo Mainline as a browser 
>   - Dillectory: https://alex.envs.net/dillectory/

You can't browse the real web that way.  Consider the JS-based captchas
in front of almost everything right now, to slow down AI scrapers.  Then
look at the crap on actual web sites.  The other stuff is mostly still
workable.  Web browsers are the bottleneck.

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#133594

On 2025-06-03, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> writes:
>> - Links/Dillo Mainline as a browser 
>>   - Dillectory: https://alex.envs.net/dillectory/
>
> You can't browse the real web that way.  Consider the JS-based captchas
> in front of almost everything right now, to slow down AI scrapers.  Then
> look at the crap on actual web sites.  The other stuff is mostly still
> workable.  Web browsers are the bottleneck.
>

The Dillectory has tons of alternatives. Also,
there's gopher://magical.fish and gemini://gemi.dev, and basic
TLS 1.3 can be granted with a client built with LibreSSL
or BearSSL. Nothing fancy, even a Pentium 4 with SSE2 can
do Gemini (and far less, I got to run a client
under the *old* Damn Small Linux release with a custom
OpenSSL client built from BearSSL libraries and 
plus a modernish GAWK build.

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#133602

anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> writes:
>> You can't browse the real web that way.
> The Dillectory has tons of alternatives.

You are missing the point.  The "real web" means the web that exists in
the real world and that was built without taking usability by
non-bloated browsers on board.  Quite a lot of the real web simply
doesn't work without Javascript, and heavyweight Javascript at that.
If you want to (or have to) use those sites in your everyday life, the
Dillectory stuff won't help.

Yes, it's possible to live your life without using those sites, just as
it's possible to live without indoor plumbing or refrigeration at home.
But it's a lifestyle change that most people can't be expected to make
just for the sake of continuing to use their 2006-era computer.

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#133630

On 2025-06-07, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> writes:
>>> You can't browse the real web that way.
>> The Dillectory has tons of alternatives.
>
> You are missing the point.  The "real web" means the web that exists in
> the real world and that was built without taking usability by
> non-bloated browsers on board.  Quite a lot of the real web simply
> doesn't work without Javascript, and heavyweight Javascript at that.
> If you want to (or have to) use those sites in your everyday life, the
> Dillectory stuff won't help.
>
> Yes, it's possible to live your life without using those sites, just as
> it's possible to live without indoor plumbing or refrigeration at home.
> But it's a lifestyle change that most people can't be expected to make
> just for the sake of continuing to use their 2006-era computer.

Most of these "web sites" are irrelevant to me. On Nextcloud UI's 
and such, rclone handles well them all. On Mastodon, there's
brutaldon. On Youtube, mpv+yt-dlp works a zillion times faster
than the Google adware/bloadware frontend. Even under an N270
netbook. Also, most of Google Docs/Sheet documents can be 
downloaded with a URL flag and opened under Libreffice/Abiword/
Gnumeric/Ted/SC-IM in a much faster way, or directly opened 
as PDF files.

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#133632

> Most of these "web sites" are irrelevant to me. On Nextcloud UI's
> and such, rclone handles well them all. On Mastodon, there's
> brutaldon. On Youtube, mpv+yt-dlp works a zillion times faster
> than the Google adware/bloadware frontend. Even under an N270
> netbook. Also, most of Google Docs/Sheet documents can be
> downloaded with a URL flag and opened under Libreffice/Abiword/
> Gnumeric/Ted/SC-IM in a much faster way, or directly opened
> as PDF files.

What if you decide to look for anything on eBay, for example?
(no, I'm not using and I'm not going to use any "Android app"
for this)

--

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