Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code

Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Date	2013-04-21 00:13 -0700
References	(2 earlier) <slrnkmt8gn.6g0.zbigniew2011REMOVE@Tichy.myhome.org> <6ec1a49f-9999-4da6-8106-b84e8a188cac@googlegroups.com> <kkmo00$adv$1@online.de> <kkmu83$rag$2@dont-email.me> <kkn6e2$kcc$1@online.de>
Message-ID	<a4bc9cd0-3b17-4559-8d2d-618c2ee32847@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code
From	mhx@iae.nl

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On Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:06:57 AM UTC+2, Bernd Paysan wrote:
[..]
> One boss, used to my performance in Forth, thought they were 
> struggling hard, and pretty slow.  They themselves were 
> convinced that their task was much easier with Forth than 
> it was with the tools they had used before.

Interesting post. 

I have found that to excel at anything, one needs to *fully 
understand* all the available tools. This is the mindset that good 
Forth programmers have, and one that is actively discouraged in 
current result-driven engineering and teaching environments 
(probably with the best of intentions). The reason that your 
former colleagues are doing so well is most likely not because
they are using Forth, but because they are learning to apply
a Forth-approach to all of their work.

> What you need for newbies to be successful is some code 
> base they can read, and some expert they can ask, for 
> basic design patterns.  

Spot on. When I wanted to learn Forth (pre-internet) 
there was zero code to learn from. Luckily I was introduced 
to Pijnenburg's codebase (FysForth) at the right moment.

> I'm not sure what to say about academia.  IMHO, academia is too 
> often an emperor with no clothes, especially the school-style 
> academia which offers you some courses in mainstream technology, 
> but no deeper insight.

Teaching is underestimated. Writing a course is a one-year 
fulltime job. If that time is not available (you should be 
doing research and write six papers per year), it will show.

[..]

> BTW Chinese people: I sometimes get mails from them, e.g. one guy 
> in a Shanghai university discovered my b16.  He didn't know about 
> literate programming, he didn't know about Forth, he was doing an 
> FPGA project, and by doing so, found some links to my processor.  
> He was pretty angry about his university that they don't teach 
> all that, because he thought that was cool stuff.  

So his university succeeded in teaching him to realize 
that basic thing allright. He will survive.

> Literate programming comes from a certain Stanford professor, 
> who is very, very difficult to ignore in computer science; though
> I have found people in the bay area, programming computers, who 
> didn't know who Donald Who? was... and Microsoft Word is the 
> only program for technical documents...

Most programmers I know are literate programmers. They prefer 
William Burrough's style and techniques. 

[..]

-marcel

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i finally get the messes caused by re using code the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-04-16 17:22 -0700
  Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-16 23:47 -0700
    Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-04-17 12:26 +0000
      Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-17 15:34 +0000
        Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-04-17 16:41 +0000
      Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-17 10:21 -0700
        Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-17 20:00 +0200
          Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-17 11:34 -0700
            Re: ... Can anything be done about that? Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-04-25 14:06 +0200
              Re: ... Can anything be done about that? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-25 07:28 -0700
                Re: ... Can anything be done about that? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-25 12:13 -0700
                Re: ... Can anything be done about that? Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-04-26 16:21 +0200
                Re: ... Can anything be done about that? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-27 06:36 -0700
          Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-17 15:49 -0400
            Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-18 00:06 +0200
              Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-18 09:09 -0700
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-04-18 20:20 +0000
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-19 12:21 -0700
              Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code mhx@iae.nl - 2013-04-21 00:13 -0700
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-04-21 12:55 +0000
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-04-21 22:37 +0200
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-04-22 11:09 +0000
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-04-24 21:09 +1000
            Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Hannu Vuolasaho <hannu.vuolasaho@nospam.tut.fi.invalid> - 2013-04-19 15:35 +0000
      Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-17 10:51 -0700
        Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-04-17 18:08 +0000
          Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-17 12:29 -0700
        Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-20 22:33 -0700
          Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-04-20 23:39 -0700
            Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-20 21:07 -1000
              Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-22 19:13 +0200
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-04-26 14:57 -0700
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-27 00:52 +0200
            Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2013-04-21 19:14 +1000
              Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-21 05:09 -0700
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2013-04-21 22:53 +1000
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-21 15:35 -0700
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-04-21 16:54 -0700
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2013-04-22 15:39 +1000
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-22 10:40 +0000
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 04:27 -0700
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-04-22 05:51 -0700
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-04-22 08:55 -0700
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-22 15:32 +0000
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code daveyrotten <danw8804@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 07:27 -0700
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-22 11:28 -0500
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-23 12:03 +0000
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-04-23 23:46 -0700
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-24 12:16 +0000
                Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-24 06:08 -0700
            Re: i finally get the messes caused by re using code marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2013-04-21 19:28 +1000

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