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Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization

From Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201112.rodent.frell.theremailer.net>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization
References <jc4kss$ht$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID <93df27c49aa7d5a25a07cfc64eb640eb@msgid.frell.theremailer.net> (permalink)
Date 2011-12-12 22:57 +0100
Organization Frell Anonymous Remailer

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> What you say is true from the perspective of embedded systems where 
> every byte and processing cycle is important. However it ignores the 
> fact that to most programmers Forth, even if they have heard of it, is a 
> write-only language - it is so different to other languages that, if 
> unfamiliar to someone, requires far more effort to understand than an 
> unfamiliar conventional language.

That shouldn't make any difference. Many languages are that way, and you're
still obligated by common decency to write idiomatic code, not write
everything like the language you used to use. According to you, how will
anyone learn anything unless it's just like what he first learnt?

> I think that such a person would stand more chance of understanding Doug's
> code than yours as given in another  post - despite the fact that your
> version is good and clear to an experienced Forth programmer. Who knows,
> someone who understood it might then go on to try using Forth.

Oh, so the idea is to water everything down in the name of advocacy? Then
who are you attracting? Visual Basic coders? OTOH if you write good code in
whatever language you write then experienced coders who don't know your
language may learn to do things the right way.

> It seems to be a sad fact that embedded system programmers don't seem to 
> realise that getting the smallest, fastest program isn't that important 
> to those who use run Forth on desktop systems.

I don't think it's embedded v. desktop, because I don't think anyone besides
Elizabeth or Steven can name 10 desktop Forth coders. I think it's people
who use things properly v. people who don't care about anything, and they
excuse their bad behaviour by calling it more readable.

> Of course some applications need the ultimate in speed and size but mostly
> those considerations are irrelevant.

I don't agree. What's more, good code is always needed whilst bad code never
is.

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Readable code and refactoring for optimization Wendell <wendellxe@yahoo.com> - 2011-12-05 18:14 -0800
  Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-05 17:54 -1000
    Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-05 17:58 -1000
      Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Hans Bezemer <thebeez@xs4all.nl> - 2011-12-06 08:49 +0100
    Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2011-12-06 07:26 +0200
      Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-05 22:02 -1000
      Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2011-12-07 00:49 +0100
    Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-12-08 00:08 -0800
      Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-08 11:25 +0000
        Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-12-08 23:51 -0800
      Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2011-12-08 14:47 +0000
        Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2011-12-08 14:05 -0500
          Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2011-12-09 17:21 +0000
            Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2011-12-10 09:08 -0500
            Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-10 07:37 -1000
              Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2011-12-12 10:27 +0000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-12 05:02 -0600
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2011-12-12 11:18 +0000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-12 05:25 -0600
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2011-12-12 12:41 +0000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-12 07:23 -0600
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2011-12-12 20:28 +0000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-13 04:07 -0600
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2011-12-13 21:04 +0000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 16:01 +0000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 09:30 -0500
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Arnold Doray <invalid@invalid.com> - 2012-01-08 16:28 +0000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-01-08 20:17 -0500
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Arnold Doray <invalid@invalid.com> - 2012-01-09 10:41 +0000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-01-09 08:55 -0500
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-01-09 11:50 -0500
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Arnold Doray <invalid@invalid.com> - 2012-01-10 06:56 +0000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-01-10 16:34 -0500
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Arnold Doray <invalid@invalid.com> - 2012-01-11 06:57 +0000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-01-11 09:50 -0500
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Arnold Doray <invalid@invalid.com> - 2012-01-11 16:28 +0000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201112.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2011-12-12 22:57 +0100
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 09:30 -0500
        Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-12-08 23:53 -0800
        Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-09 17:46 -1000
          Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2011-12-10 11:39 +0000
            Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Ian Osgood <iano@quirkster.com> - 2011-12-21 13:09 -0800
          Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2011-12-10 08:52 -0500
          Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-12-12 09:11 -0800
            Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-12 07:48 -1000
              Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 13:47 -0500
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-12-12 11:46 -0800
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 16:20 -0500
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-12 13:48 -0800
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-13 10:31 +0000
              Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-12-12 11:42 -0800
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-12 13:35 -0800
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-12 11:49 -1000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-12-12 23:50 -0800
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-13 03:04 -0800
  Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2011-12-06 11:04 +0000
    Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2011-12-06 05:52 -0800
  Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-06 13:52 +0000
    Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-06 08:22 -1000
      Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-07 08:55 +0000
  Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2011-12-11 07:29 -0500
    Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-11 08:59 -1000
      Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 05:33 -0800
        Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-13 09:05 -0600
          Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-13 08:10 -1000
            Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-15 16:44 +0000
              Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-15 09:15 -1000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-16 17:13 +0000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-16 08:11 -1000
                Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-21 13:57 +0000
        Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-13 15:06 +0000
        Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2011-12-13 16:18 +0100
          Re: Readable code and refactoring for optimization mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2011-12-14 15:49 +0200

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