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Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language?

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On Wednesday, July 25, 2012 1:22:11 AM UTC-7, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Jul 25, 7:00 am, Hugh Aguilar <hughaguila...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 24, 8:01 pm, "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > A poll of most programmers in the world would include the ones that have written their own FORTHs, and the rest who know how to look past a namng convention, not to mention the open source projects. What a crock.
> >
> > I don't know what you are talking about in regard to a naming
> > convention or open-source projects.
> >
> > It is true that a lot of programmers have written their own Forth.
> > Another thing that I have noticed is that when I say that I have
> > programmed Forth professionally (such as during a job interview for a
> > C programming job), somebody will invariably announce that he is a
> > "real Forth expert," meaning that he wrote a Forth of his own. He
> > always expects me to be awed by the fact that he is a Forth compiler-
> > writer whereas I am a mere Forth application programmer. In the old
> > days, these were typically ITC implementations loosely based on
> > PolyForth except with the 64K limit problem solved (either by putting
> > code and data in their own 64K segments or by using ES as the Forth IP
> > and starting every word on a paragraph boundary). In more modern
> > times, these are typically C implementations with a gigantic SWITCH
> > statement (what Rod Pemberton is doing). The programmer declares
> > himself to be a "real Forth expert" and in the next breath will
> > declare that Forth is a mildly amusing educational exercise but that
> > it has no practical value. Whether it is an ITC-based PolyForthesque
> > implementation or a C-based Gforthesque implementation, the execution
> > speed is too slow for it to be used professionally (by about an order
> > of magnitude). Of course, Python is also slow as molasses, but at
> > least Python has powerful features and extensive libraries, which
> > neither SwiftForth nor Gforth have.
> >
> > Forth Inc. not only ruined Forth's credibility with their 64K-limited
> > PolyForth, but they also ruined Forth's credibility with their
> > horribly-slow ITC implementation. This is why, during 16-bit MS-DOS
> > days when Turbo C dominated, almost everybody who knew about Forth
> > described Forth as an interpreted language. People would routinely
> > state that because PolyForth uses ITC, Forth doesn't deserve to be
> > described as a "compiler" but should instead be described as an
> > "interpreter" --- that PolyForth was in the same category as QBasic,
> > but should not be compared to the C compilers at all.
> 
> Well, getting back to the original topic, I stand by my original
> assertion. The secret to a successful progamming language is simply:
> 
> * Users
> * Inertia
> 
> And of course, you don't get the intertia without the users.
> 
> There's one other secret ingredient: The languge you learned at
> university.
> 
> AT&T pulled of a very clever manoeuvre when they licenced Unix to the
> universities for next to nothing. Obviously, I don't know if it was a
> deliberate move, but the side effect was to breed generation after
> generation of C programmers. That obviously 'bubbled up' to the
> workplace as those students graduated. They took their programming
> languge skills with them in exactly the same way as they took their
> spoken language skills with them. In other words, it was completely
> natural.
> 
> Back in the early 2000's, working as a Principal Software Engineer for
> a SCADA company, we suddenly saw a 'paradigm shift' (I think that
> phrase is somewhat over-used, but is applicable in this case): Our new
> graduates didn't want to use C, or C++. Why? Because they probably
> only spent a couple of days studying the language at college/uni. C
> was out. Java was in. The King is dead. Long live the King. They
> didn't want to do 'low-level' close-to-the-metal programming. They
> wanted to do OOP, because it was sexy, and it was what they knew.
> Showing a 25 year old graduate how pointers work in C is not fun.
> It was quite a battle getting them to settle down and see the wood for
> the trees. But it really was night and day. British Uni's dumped C in
> around 2001 and switched to Java.
> 
> I attribute that directly to the success of Java, just as with C.
> 
> So, you need:
> 
> * Promotion via university education, which gives you:
> * Users, which gives you:
> * Inertia
> 
> Once it's got the intertia, it's quite un-stoppable.
> 
> What it has *absolutely nothing* to do with is:
> 
> * The quality of the language!
> 
> YMMV :-)

so how can forth pull a clever maneuver?

;)

thats what I am asking!!!!

;)


;)

i was imagining today a forth app that used 1 file on unix but kept all kinda things in thsi file, and the file could extend into ram, like varnish cache does, and this fiel can do foth based database stuff and have data and have lots of multi tasking all in 1 file so minial need to screw  with forth to unix compat file crap, and max fun programming forth to dominate the web with leaner the a microbe web apps!!!

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The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2012-07-17 17:57 -0700
  Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-18 01:30 -0700
    Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-18 15:19 +0200
      Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-18 08:24 -0700
      Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2012-07-18 16:25 -0700
        Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2012-07-19 08:35 +0300
          Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hannu Vuolasaho <hannu.vuolasaho@nospam.tut.fi.invalid> - 2012-07-19 06:31 +0000
          Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? visploveslisp@gmail.com - 2012-07-25 16:49 -0700
        Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-19 01:55 -0700
          Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-19 09:09 -1000
            Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-19 19:36 -0700
              Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-07-20 12:22 -0400
            Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-07-20 12:08 -0500
          Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-19 18:49 -0700
            Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-20 00:39 -0700
              Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-24 00:21 -0700
        Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-19 11:20 +0000
        Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2012-07-24 20:01 -0700
          Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-24 23:00 -0700
            Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-25 01:22 -0700
              Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-25 01:51 -0700
              Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-25 07:18 -1000
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? vandys@vsta.org - 2012-07-25 18:07 +0000
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-07-25 16:53 -0400
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-26 01:46 -0700
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-26 22:48 -0700
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-27 23:44 +0200
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-27 15:25 -0700
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-28 00:44 +0200
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-07-28 18:15 +0000
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-28 13:35 -0500
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-28 21:59 -0700
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-07-30 11:53 -0400
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-30 20:38 -0700
              Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-25 23:25 +0200
              Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? visploveslisp@gmail.com - 2012-07-25 16:52 -0700
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-25 17:00 -0700
              Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? visploveslisp@gmail.com - 2012-07-25 17:01 -0700
              Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-07-25 17:10 -0700
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-25 22:44 -0700
              Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 05:24 -0400
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 05:26 -0400
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-26 22:26 -0700
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-27 13:52 -0400
                Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-27 15:52 -0700
            Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-07-25 01:30 -0700
    Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2012-07-21 16:17 -0700
  Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-18 15:13 +0200
    Re: The Secret of a Successful Programming Language? visploveslisp@gmail.com - 2012-07-28 21:56 -0700

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