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Re: Evolution of Forths was Re: Recognizer proposal

Date 2026-02-24 10:45 +1100
Subject Re: Evolution of Forths was Re: Recognizer proposal
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
References <2026Feb9.084944@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <nnd$0ad3ab77$499f67d9@7973d9f3cc5a9d2e> <nnd$2c1f28a6$6a63a47d@2be66b0a4fa82a61> <6997b9e1$1@news.ausics.net> <nnd$2b5f6313$28cc271c@344eb76b905bea04>
From dxf <dxforth@gmail.com>
Message-ID <699ce68c$1@news.ausics.net> (permalink)
Organization Ausics - https://newsgroups.ausics.net

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On 20/02/2026 9:58 pm, albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl wrote:
> In article <6997b9e1$1@news.ausics.net>, dxf  <dxforth@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 20/02/2026 12:38 am, albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Willem Ouwerkerk c.s. developed many Forths for small SBC (8051, etc.)
>>> This was done with a so called metacompiler. Once you get used to
>>> this tool, it is comparitively easy to port to new microprocessors.
>>> In this development path, the first thing you do is to write a
>>> Forth assembler for the new processor, then insert the uP-dependant
>>> stuff into the metacompiler tool.
>>> In this way the meta sources determine what is present, possibly
>>> a bit idiosyncratic.
>>>
>>> I consider my assembler sources more valuable than an open source
>>> metacompiler system, so I choose that route.
>>
>> Not only was native assembler easier for me as I mentioned, it was
>> considerably faster.  Running the F83 metacompiler on a 4MHz Z80 was
>> painfully slow.  On top of this I'd have needed to modify it to do
>> dictionary segmenting - my prime motivation in creating a forth.
>> Even the ubiquitous M80 CP/M assembler proved too slow and I invested
>> in an SLR Systems assembler.  Given the number of compiles I did in
>> development it was easily the best money I ever spent on software.
>> Not that I wasn't forced to learn new stuff.  Macros, code segmentation,
>> etc gave me enough headaches.  Looking back it seems crazy.  No regrets
>> however as I began to realize this was more my niche than writing
>> applications.  That said, if one doesn't write apps there's no way to
>> evaluate the effectiveness of a given forth.  How many forths never got
>> past creation because the author's interest waned.  For these the list
>> of words in ANS etc suffices.  But the forth one uses is something else.
>> It's the difference between a living tree and what comprises trees.
>> Standards are an obsession with the latter and kind of misses the point.
>>
> 
> All tools running on windows/linux are fast,
> The metacompilers do not run on the sbc and take at most seconds.
> 
> Especially assemblers, building ciforth is in the milliseconds.
> (What they say in a blink of an eye).

Metacompilers have an air of cleverness but come with so many hurdles that
frankly if there's an alternate tool I'll use that.  I don't blame William
Payne (8051 FigForth) in the least for hiring Nautilus Systems to write his
metacompilers, or C.H. Ting for translating Bill Muench's metacompiler-based
eForth to MASM.  I figure there's enough masochism in Forth already without
looking for more ;-)

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Thread

Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-02-09 07:49 +0000
  Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-10 13:36 +0100
    Re: Recognizer proposal jkn <jkn+nin@nicorp.co.uk> - 2026-02-10 17:48 +0000
      Re: Recognizer proposal dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-02-11 11:21 +1100
        Re: Recognizer proposal jkn <jkn+nin@nicorp.co.uk> - 2026-02-11 09:05 +0000
          Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-11 12:46 +0100
          Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-11 13:36 +0100
            Re: Recognizer proposal jkn <jkn+nin@nicorp.co.uk> - 2026-02-11 20:49 +0000
          Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-02-11 18:37 +0000
            Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-13 12:25 +0100
        Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-11 14:34 +0100
          Re: Recognizer proposal dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-02-12 11:35 +1100
            Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-02-12 07:24 +0000
              Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-12 10:59 +0100
                Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-02-12 10:13 +0000
                Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-13 13:22 +0100
                Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-13 13:07 +0100
              Re: Recognizer proposal dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-02-12 20:59 +1100
            Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-13 12:35 +0100
              Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-13 13:30 +0100
                Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-13 13:44 +0100
          Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-02-12 07:35 +0000
            Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-12 10:55 +0100
              Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-02-13 08:27 +0000
                Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-13 13:43 +0100
                Re: Recognizer proposal Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-02-13 23:50 +0000
                Re: Recognizer proposal dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-02-14 12:53 +1100
                Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-15 13:33 +0100
                Re: Recognizer proposal dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-02-16 12:18 +1100
                Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-19 13:42 +0100
                Evolution of Forths  was Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-19 14:38 +0100
                Re: Evolution of Forths was Re: Recognizer proposal dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 12:33 +1100
                Re: Evolution of Forths was Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-20 11:58 +0100
                Re: Evolution of Forths was Re: Recognizer proposal dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-02-24 10:45 +1100
                Re: Evolution of Forths was Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-21 16:35 +0100
                Re: Evolution of Forths was Re: Recognizer proposal dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-02-24 13:13 +1100
          Re: Recognizer proposal Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-02-25 20:25 -0800
            Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-02-26 06:53 +0000
            Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-26 13:09 +0100
              Re: Recognizer proposal dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-02-27 20:24 +1100
              Re: Recognizer proposal Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-02-27 09:25 +0000
                Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-02-27 14:48 +0000
              Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-27 19:21 +0100
                Re: Recognizer proposal dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-02-28 10:15 +1100
                Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-28 15:34 +0100
                Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-28 17:56 +0100
                Re: Recognizer proposal Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-02-28 22:45 -0800
                Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-03-01 07:54 +0000
                Re: Recognizer proposal Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-03-01 14:17 -0800
                Re: Recognizer proposal antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-02 00:21 +0000
                Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-03-02 12:36 +0100
                Re: Recognizer proposal Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-03-04 16:48 -0800
                Re: Recognizer proposal antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-02 00:17 +0000
            Re: Recognizer proposal Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-02-26 07:32 -0600
            Re: Recognizer proposal Stephen Pelc <stephen@vfxforth.com> - 2026-03-02 13:23 +0000
              Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-03-03 13:47 +0100
                Re: Recognizer proposal Stephen Pelc <stephen@vfxforth.com> - 2026-03-03 14:39 +0000
                Re: Recognizer proposal Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-03-04 16:52 -0800
                Re: Recognizer proposal Stephen Pelc <stephen@vfxforth.com> - 2026-03-06 10:54 +0000
                Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-03-06 12:22 +0100
                Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-03-07 17:58 +0100
              Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-03-03 18:33 +0100
      Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-11 13:54 +0100
        Re: Recognizer proposal jkn <jkn+nin@nicorp.co.uk> - 2026-02-11 13:09 +0000
          Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-11 15:59 +0100
            Re: Recognizer proposal jkn <jkn+nin@nicorp.co.uk> - 2026-02-11 20:46 +0000
        Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-02-11 16:30 +0000
          Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-12 12:07 +0100
            Re: Recognizer proposal Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2026-02-12 13:00 +0000
            Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-02-12 12:55 +0000
              Re: Recognizer proposal Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-02-13 14:17 +0100
            Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-13 13:28 +0100
              Re: Recognizer proposal dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-02-14 01:23 +1100
            Re: Recognizer proposal Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-02-16 22:07 -0600
              Re: Recognizer proposal dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-02-17 21:25 +1100
                Re: Recognizer proposal Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-02-17 08:16 -0600
                Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-02-21 15:32 +0000
              Re: Recognizer proposal Stephen Pelc <stephen@vfxforth.com> - 2026-02-17 14:13 +0000
                Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-17 20:21 +0100
                Re: Recognizer proposal dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-02-18 13:08 +1100
    Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-11 12:29 +0100
  Re: Recognizer proposal minforth <minforth@gmx.net> - 2026-02-18 11:14 +0100
    Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-02-21 15:40 +0000
      Re: Recognizer proposal Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-02-24 02:43 -0600
        Re: Recognizer proposal Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-03-08 18:15 -0500
          Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-03-09 07:49 +0000
            Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-03-09 10:37 +0100
              Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-03-10 07:35 +0000
                Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-03-10 12:06 +0100
                Re: Recognizer proposal Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-03-11 09:48 -0500
            Re: Recognizer proposal Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-03-09 16:48 -0500
              Re: Recognizer proposal Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-03-11 09:45 -0500
  Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-18 12:33 +0100
    Re: Recognizer proposal anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-02-21 15:48 +0000
      Re: Recognizer proposal albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-02-25 14:11 +0100
  Re: Recognizer proposal NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 19:23 +0000
    Re: Recognizer proposal thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:13 +0000

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