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Re: LatestXT

From anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Subject Re: LatestXT
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
References (5 earlier) <rOadnYx_c--7An7TnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@supernews.com> <2011Dec11.120238@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <6rudnTd7GtENaXnTnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@supernews.com> <2011Dec12.183551@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <sOOdnUmEzuxGqXrTnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@supernews.com>
Organization Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Date 2011-12-13 15:12 +0000
Message-ID <2011Dec13.161241@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)

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Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>>>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>>>>>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>>>>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>>>Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I'm beginning to appreciate Gforth's LATESTXT word. Is there a portable 
>>>>>>>>>> implementation? 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>No.  Practice varies so much between Forths that it hasn't been
>>>>>>>>>possible to standardize it.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This feature should be easy to insert into any standard Forth:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Add a possibly (USERized) VALUE LATESTXT, and in every place where an
>>>>>>>> xt is defined, add an "is latestxt".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Not necessarily.  For example, you don't know when the latest XT is
>>>>>>>defined while compiling a colon definition; it might not be until
>>>>>>>after ; .
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Is this based on a real, standard system (i.e., practice), or do you
>>>>>> just make this up to support your claim?
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't think it needs any support: AFAIK it's allowed by the language
>>>>>of the standard, even though I don't know of any existing standard
>>>>>systems that do so.
>>>> 
>>>> So it's not that practice varies; you just claimed that it does,
>>>> without any support.
>>>
>>>I did not claim any such thing.
>> 
>> I did not keep the quoted text because I am too lazy to remove it, but
>> because it proves that you did.
>> Here it is again:
>> 
>>>>>>>>>No.  Practice varies so much between Forths that it hasn't been
>>>>>>>>>possible to standardize it.
>
>Ah, I see where you're coming from.  That was in response to a
>completely different question:
>
>>Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm beginning to appreciate Gforth's LATESTXT word. Is there a
>>> portable implementation?

Sure, but in your answer you made claims beyond the answer to the
question.

>There may be as many ways to get the address of the latest word in the
>dictionary as there are Forths.  I've seen LAST @ , LATEST @, LATEST @
>@, and so on.  And these generally point to to the name field, and
>there are different ways use to get from there to the XT, etc.  So, I
>think it's fair to say that practice varies, which is why there's no
>portable implementation of LATESTXT.

Yes, but that does not make standardization impossible.

>>>However, several recent threads on c.l.f. seem to me to have been of
>>>the form "How can I do X?  You can't.  But let's standardize Y, and
>>>then you could."  Let's not add any more redundant language
>>>features.
>> 
>> If you cannot do X without Y, Y is not redundant.
>
>That need not be true if X is not really useful!

"redundant" is not a synonym for "useless".  A feature can be useless
without being redundant (maybe FILE-STATUS, but one might discuss
that), and it can be redundant but still useful (TH would be an
example).

>> But just writing that it might restrict systems, and that you can
>> think up a system in ten minutes that would be made non-standard by
>> the feature is not any more helpful than the absurd argument in my
>> reductio-ad-absurdum. 
>
>I don't think so.  I believe that there is commonly a severe lack of
>imagination displayed by posters to c.l.f.  IMO, people suggest a new
>language feature without
>
>a.  Considering how the same thing may be done in the standard
>language.
>
>b.  Considering what the side-effects of standardizing such a feature
>may be.

Sure, but that does not mean there is a lack of imagination.  There
have also been cases where the standard specified some particular
behaviour, and someone started inventing imaginary implementations
that are ruled out by the standard, and then argued that this standard
behaviour must not be standard because the standard is intended to
accomodate many different implementation approaches.  Just in case you
are wondering, that "someone" was not you for the discussion I am
remembering.

>> The question of whether we find a feature desirable enough to include
>> it is a different one.  I just don't want any chaff from
>> "restricts the system" arguments without any evidence.
>
>You may not want them, but these arguments are, IMO, essential.
>Robust scientific argument is good, but mere brainstorming can be
>useful too; even if a poster turns out to be wrong some useful ideas
>may come out of the discussion.

I find that this kind of chaff tends to kill any brainstorming,
because instead of letting the brains storm, they get focussed on
shooting down the chaff (that's the purpose of chaff, after all), and
on demonstrating to the others that it is just chaff (and the others
also have to think about the chaff).  I am no expert at brainstorming,
but from what I read about it, the most important rule is not to raise
objections in the brainstorming phase.

In the present case we wasted a lot of time arguing about your claim
that (paraphrased) "varying *practice* has made standardization
*impossible*", when standardization has never been attempted, and
there are good reasons (including practice) to assume that
standardization would be possible; whether it is desirable and worth
the effort is another question that we never got to because we were
dealing with the chaff.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2011: http://www.euroforth.org/ef11/

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Thread

LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-09 02:42 +0000
  Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-09 03:43 -0600
    Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-09 13:12 +0000
    Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-09 13:26 +0000
      Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-09 12:41 -0600
        Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-10 12:24 +0000
          Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-10 12:04 -0600
            Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-11 11:02 +0000
              Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-11 12:21 -0600
                Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-12 17:35 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-13 05:19 -0600
                Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-13 15:12 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-13 11:55 -0600
          Re: LatestXT Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2011-12-15 16:30 -0800
            Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-16 17:11 +0000
              Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-16 16:15 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-17 03:22 -0600
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-17 15:34 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2011-12-17 08:04 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-17 17:20 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-17 12:38 -0600
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-18 04:01 +0000
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-17 22:06 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-18 11:47 +0000
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-18 08:51 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-19 01:14 +0000
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-18 18:59 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-18 04:40 -0600
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-18 11:31 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-18 06:21 -0600
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-18 12:55 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-19 03:27 -0600
                Re: LatestXT Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2011-12-18 07:21 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-19 01:02 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2011-12-18 17:32 -0800
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-17 09:43 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-12-19 20:40 +0000
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-17 09:38 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-18 01:08 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-18 01:38 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2011-12-18 13:13 +0100
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-18 08:55 -0800
      Re: LatestXT "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-09 09:36 -1000
      Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-10 03:24 +0000
        Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-09 20:12 -0800
        Re: LatestXT "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-09 18:15 -1000
          Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-10 10:18 +0000
            Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-10 11:39 +0000
              Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-10 16:31 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2011-12-10 23:03 +0100
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-11 02:34 +0000
                Re: LatestXT "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-10 18:01 -1000
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-11 09:46 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-11 03:55 -0600
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-11 11:35 +0000
                Re: LatestXT "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-11 10:59 -1000
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 02:19 +0000
                Re: LatestXT "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-11 17:38 -1000
                Re: LatestXT Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2011-12-12 13:22 +0100
                Re: LatestXT stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2011-12-12 10:34 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 12:32 +0000
                Re: LatestXT stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2011-12-12 14:55 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 16:18 +0000
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-12 09:09 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 17:51 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-12 12:03 -0600
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-12 10:51 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 12:16 +0000
                Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-13 15:11 +0000
                Re: LatestXT "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-13 08:00 -1000
                Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-12 18:18 +0000
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-11 13:26 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-12 03:51 -0600
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 11:14 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-12 05:37 -0600
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 12:54 +0000
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-11 11:05 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2011-12-11 23:25 +0000
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-11 16:58 -0800
                Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-12 17:21 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2011-12-12 21:50 +0000
                Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-13 16:44 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2011-12-13 22:13 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 11:46 +0000
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-13 04:28 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 05:40 +0000
                Re: LatestXT "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-13 21:24 -1000
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-14 04:05 -0600
                Re: LatestXT Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 03:48 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-20 08:59 -0600
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 03:21 +0000
                Re: LatestXT "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-11 17:52 -1000
                Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-12 12:41 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2011-12-12 15:00 +0100
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-12 09:37 -0800
                Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-11 10:43 +0000
                Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-11 10:21 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2011-12-12 12:58 +0100
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-11 03:35 -0600
                Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-11 10:47 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-12 03:54 -0600
                Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-12 17:20 +0000
                Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-12 11:53 -0600
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-10 14:21 -0800
                Re: LatestXT Arnold Doray <thinksquared@gmail.com> - 2011-12-11 02:37 +0000
                Re: LatestXT BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-12-11 11:13 -0800
                Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-11 11:25 +0000
                Re: LatestXT "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2011-12-11 08:55 -1000
        Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-10 02:49 -0600
          Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-10 12:06 +0000
            Re: LatestXT Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-12-10 12:11 -0600
          Re: LatestXT Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2011-12-10 12:33 +0000
      Re: LatestXT Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-12-10 18:52 +0000
        Re: LatestXT anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-12-11 10:50 +0000

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