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Groups > comp.lang.c > #399403
| From | cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed |
| Date | 2026-05-24 19:08 +0000 |
| Organization | PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC |
| Message-ID | <10uvic7$63b$1@reader1.panix.com> (permalink) |
| References | <10uapjs$19723$1@dont-email.me> <10un0j7$obiv$2@dont-email.me> <10upq57$ohg$1@reader1.panix.com> <10uprpn$1hfpm$1@dont-email.me> |
In article <10uprpn$1hfpm$1@dont-email.me>,
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>On 22/05/2026 16:44, Dan Cross wrote:
>> In article <10un0j7$obiv$2@dont-email.me>,
>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>> There is definitely potential for a language's type system to make it
>>> harder to make some kinds of mistakes. But there is a risk in making
>>> the language too restrictive - people end up writing horrible code to
>>> work around restrictions, or use "unsafe" code too much.
>>
>> Interesting. I've found it to be somewhat the opposite; using a
>> richer type system has lead to code that is easier to understand
>> and reason about, and less buggy: type-oriented programming can
>> make entire categories of errors *unrepresentable*, so it's not
>> just _harder_ to make certain kinds of mistakes, but
>> _impossible_. The existance of an object of some type can be
>> thought of as an existence proof that the invariants the type
>> represents hold.
>
>In general, I agree - I prefer strongly typed languages, and it's always
>best if an error is identified by the code being uncompilable rather
>than waiting for run-time testing (or testing by evil hackers). But if
>people want to do something with the language that is hard to achieve
>efficiently within the norms of the language, and there are escape
>hatches ("unsafe" code, inline assembly, calling external C functions,
>etc.) then people will use them.
Sure; that seems pretty clear, given extensive available
evidence.
>People do sometimes write C code that
>knowingly depends on undefined behaviour, because it makes their results
>more efficient and "it worked when I tested it".
Yes, or they force some knob on their compiler into the required
position to give them guaranteed results. Linux does this, for
example; last time I worked in it, Google's massive (2BLOC) code
base similarly.
>Type safety - like any kind of safety - can sometimes get in the way of
>"getting things done". A balance always needs to be found to ensure
>that people can do what they need to do without breaking rules or using
>"escapes" more than absolutely necessary. If people find that much of
>their Rust code is "unsafe", then most of the point of using Rust is
>lost. (Of course this also means that different languages are suited to
>different tasks.)
It _can_, but I wouldn't take it as a given that it _does_, and
what I'm trying to say is that contrary to often getting in the
way, it can be used effectively to make programs better and
safer, with no runtime downside. Indeed, a well-typed program
can be faster than the alternative, since a) the compiler can
prove that some properties hold, and b) it can be more
aggressively optimized at a higher level. An example here are
non-nullable references; there's no need to check whether they
are NULL or not before indirecting through them, since by
definition they cannot be NULL.
>> And Alexis King wrote the great, "Parse, Don't Validate" essay
>> some years ago where she talks about "Type-Driven Development":
>> https://lexi-lambda.github.io/blog/2019/11/05/parse-don-t-validate/
>>
>> More recently, Yaron Minsky gave a talk and discussed this in an
>> OCaml context (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUYP4C29yCw; the
>> most relevant bits start at about 6:35. The talk is about AI
>> and constraining agents, but the discussion around types is more
>> general).
>>
>> I wrote the production OS loader for Oxide compute sleds using
>> this technique in the virtual memory system (and other places):
>> the loader uses multiple page sizes, and the rule is that, when
>> mapping a region of memory, it uses the largest page size that
>> it can, given size and alignment constraints. But I use the
>> type system to make it impossible to, say, map a 2MiB "large"
>> physical page frame to a non-2MiB aligned virtual boundary.
>>
>>> I did some work, eons ago, in a language called XC that was specifically
>>> for XMOS microcontrollers. The language and tools had a feature that
>>> made data races impossible by not allowing competing access to shared
>>> variables from different threads. Since threads were part of the
>>> hardware, and the tools analysed the code flow through threads, this
>>> could all be enforced at build time - data had to be passed in messages,
>>> not shared memory. But for some things that involved large buffers,
>>> that was hopelessly inefficient - and these devices were regularly used
>>> with USB, audio, and similar things that needed large and predictable
>>> buffers. So code - even library and example code from the manufacturer
>>> - was full of inline assembly to work around the "smart-arse" language
>>> and tools.
>>
>> Hmm. This reads less like an indictment of the idea of stronger
>> typing, but rather a failure to provide adequate abstractions in
>> the type system.
>
>It is not an indication of problems with stronger typing, but it is an
>indication that the restrictions inherent in the language and tools made
>them somewhat unsuitable for a lot of use-cases that fitted the hardware
>well. (Modern XMOS tools have changed significantly since those days,
>perhaps partly because of such issues.)
Sure, but that's a failure of that system to provide good
abstractions: the system was not rich enough to provide the
functionality you needed or wanted.
I think the central tension here is that the idea of a strong
type system that is also semantically rich is being conflated
with one that's highly restrictive. What I'm suggesting is that
the opposite is true.
>> I'm going to mention Rust again; apologies. When confined to
>> the safe subset, it _also_ has data race freedom. The rules
>> that give this property are:
>>
>> 1. Every object has exactly one owner, and assignments of
>> non-trivial types change ownership (they are logically a
k>> "move");
>> 2. References to an object may be "borrowed" from the owner,
>> and mutable references (that is, references that may be used
>> to write to the object) are distinct from immutable
>> references (that is, references that may only be used to read
>> from an object);
>> 3. Mutable and immutable references are temporally mutually
>> exclusive: a mutable reference may be borrowed from an object
>> iff that is the only live reference to that object at the
>> time: that is, it is not permitted to borrow a mut ref to an
>> object if either another mut ref or any immutable refs to it
>> are live; any number of immutable references may be taken to
>> an object concurrently.
>>
>> If all of these rules are obeyed (and in safe rust, they're
>> verified at compile time by the borrow checker) then you cannot
>> have data races.
>
>That's all good, by the sound of it. But if people find this gets in
>the way of efficiency - perhaps because they know that it is safe to
>hold two separate mutable references to an object for reasons the borrow
>checker can't see - the temptation to use "unsafe" or other workarounds
>comes quickly.
Not really. The rule is that borrowing a mutable reference to
some object is mutually exclusive with borrowing any other kind
of reference to that same object at the same time. `unsafe`
doesn't change that rules, or let the programmer off the hook
for violating it: `unsafe` code isn't allowed to mix mut ref
with other references any more than _safe_ code. All `unsafe`
means is that the burden of upholding the rules of the language
falls to the programmer, without compiler assistence, because
the programmer knows something that the compiler does not (and
probably cannot) for some reason.
However, if it really _is_ the case that multiple simultaneous
writes are ok, the ability to create new types and assign them
semantics and behavior menas that a programmer can build a _new_
abstraction that lets them do something similar. Atomics are
an interesting case in point: one can store to them using a
non-mutable reference: while this seems counter-intuitive at
first, it sort of makes sense for the same reason that a `Mutex`
is accessed via an immutable reference: one cannot observe an
atomic in an intermediate state due to an update, and `load` and
`store` are explicit operations (in practice, the compiler
lowers those to single load/store operations and whatever
barriers are appropriate for the target architecture).
A hardware device modeling a framebuffer might be another case;
those are output-only devices, and there's no reason that two
threads cannot write to different parts of the buffer at the
same time, but given a suitable interface, the interface doesn't
need to expose unsafety. And if you've got a rich type system,
you have the rules to build that interface.
>That does not mean that a language should not try to have such rules,
>and enforce them at compile time - far from it. The aim should be that
>as much code as possible is correct, or at least immune to particular
>classes of bugs, checked by the compiler and tools.
I think you're saying something different than what I'm saying;
my point is that the safe interface shouldn't be seen as a
burden and, if well-executed, it shouldn't add a runtime tax in
terms of reduced performance. You seem to be taking it as a
given that the rules of the language will make both of those
things true, however.
>> At first glance it appears that it must suffer from the same
>> drawbacks as `XC`, which you mentioned above. Except that the
>> language does provide controlled ways to share data
>> concurrently.
>>
>> Using the _unsafe_ subset, there is one place where it is
>> permitted to have multiple, mutable references to an object: the
>> `UnsafeCell`. This gives Rust interior mutability, which means
>> that you can build safe abstractions for data sharing, like
>> `Mutex` types that own the data they protect.
>
>If "unsafe" gives enough, but is rarely needed in most code, then it
>sounds like a good balance.
Yes. And moreover, one can hide that unsafety behind a safe
interface.
- Dan C.
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Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-20 16:41 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-20 19:51 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-20 21:14 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-21 08:45 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 12:56 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-21 14:55 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 18:26 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-21 21:23 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 20:59 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-21 21:35 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 09:31 +0200
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Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 09:34 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 11:43 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-22 12:13 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 14:16 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-22 17:32 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 20:27 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-23 15:30 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-23 17:59 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-23 07:56 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 11:41 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 13:31 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 13:42 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 15:11 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-22 14:57 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-22 16:16 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-22 17:43 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-22 21:03 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-22 22:02 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-25 07:39 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 17:53 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-23 07:51 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-23 10:58 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-23 07:33 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-24 02:48 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-24 10:13 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-24 12:30 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-24 13:39 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed tTh <tth@none.invalid> - 2026-05-24 22:09 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-24 21:48 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-24 22:04 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-25 10:34 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 11:45 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 15:08 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 14:31 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-05-21 19:37 +0300
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 18:38 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-21 13:54 -0400
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 20:09 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-21 14:31 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-21 19:41 -0400
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-22 05:23 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-22 21:38 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-22 23:17 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 00:04 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-23 09:35 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-23 03:59 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-21 13:48 -0400
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-21 14:23 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 23:47 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-21 17:24 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 01:51 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-22 14:04 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 16:16 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 17:47 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 17:35 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-22 20:57 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-23 00:24 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-23 11:46 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-23 11:31 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-23 13:51 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-23 13:07 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-23 14:35 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-23 14:38 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-23 20:46 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-23 13:55 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-22 05:58 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-21 21:21 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-22 07:17 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 10:49 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-23 05:49 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-22 18:37 -0400
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-21 19:49 -0400
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-21 17:27 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 14:21 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 20:32 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 14:19 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 14:03 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-20 16:39 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-20 15:18 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-20 17:38 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-20 18:17 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-21 09:56 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-21 12:18 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-21 15:16 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-22 14:44 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 17:12 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-24 19:08 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-25 12:16 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-26 14:09 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-26 18:16 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-21 15:04 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-20 16:47 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-21 02:55 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 21:12 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 21:31 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-24 11:00 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-24 04:15 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-20 10:40 -0400
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-20 16:52 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-20 14:56 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-20 06:38 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 02:45 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 02:31 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-21 10:16 +0200
[OT] Genie bug and fix (was Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-22 04:48 +0200
Re: [OT] Genie bug and fix (was Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-22 05:02 +0200
Re: [OT] Genie bug and fix (was Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 11:18 +0100
Re: [OT] Genie bug and fix (was Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-23 09:21 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-20 06:24 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-20 11:55 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 02:30 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 02:21 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-20 18:51 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-05-21 11:46 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 14:56 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-21 15:12 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 16:47 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-05-21 19:27 +0300
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 20:03 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 19:42 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 19:46 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 20:08 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-19 14:34 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-19 15:01 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-19 15:15 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-20 09:24 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-20 03:26 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-19 13:29 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-19 16:46 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-19 13:56 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-19 14:27 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-19 12:35 -0400
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 11:57 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-18 13:57 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 14:18 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-18 16:07 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 14:12 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-18 07:17 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-17 23:30 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-18 09:02 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-18 09:38 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 10:50 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 10:00 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 16:31 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-19 09:18 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-19 10:00 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-19 10:34 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-19 14:19 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-20 04:09 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-19 11:43 -0400
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-18 01:22 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 11:23 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-18 11:07 +0000
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 14:10 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 15:01 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 14:33 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 16:39 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 16:12 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 17:35 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 16:59 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 16:25 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 17:50 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 18:21 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 17:29 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 17:04 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 16:31 +0100
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 18:12 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 18:24 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 14:40 -0700
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-17 14:57 +0200
Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-17 16:06 +0200
Re: multipass Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-17 05:50 +0000
Re: multipass Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-17 11:26 +0100
Re: multipass David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-18 09:08 +0200
Re: multipass Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2026-05-17 17:31 +0200
Re: multipass makendo <makendo@makendo.invalid> - 2026-05-24 01:14 +0800
Re: multipass Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-27 01:05 +0000
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