Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed

From	cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed
Date	2026-05-22 14:44 +0000
Organization	PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID	<10upq57$ohg$1@reader1.panix.com> (permalink)
References	<10uapjs$19723$1@dont-email.me> <10umdsa$hnml$1@dont-email.me> <10umt5o$12$1@reader1.panix.com> <10un0j7$obiv$2@dont-email.me>

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In article <10un0j7$obiv$2@dont-email.me>,
David Brown  <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>On 21/05/2026 14:18, Dan Cross wrote:
>> In article <10umdsa$hnml$1@dont-email.me>,
>> David Brown  <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>> [snip]
>> I think one can level some reasonable criticism at the language,
>> however.  The `goto error;` idiom is used in C because there are
>> few alternatives for cleanup handling on failure.  Modulo what
>> we discussed before, that code can _often_ be restructured to
>> avoid it, but sometimes it can't, and frequently it just isn't.
>
>I think "isn't" is more common than "can't".

Yes, that's the distinction I tried to draw.

>But I also don't think the 
>"goto error" idiom is necessarily bad in itself - it's just that it is 
>often used badly.  A typical indication of poor usage is when a function 
>is getting very long, and there are multiple "error" labels.
>
>However, the problem with this code was not the "goto error" idiom, or 
>the "goto" itself - the problem was the mismatch between indentation and 
>the statement under control of the "if".  It would have been equally bad 
>if it had been "return" rather than "goto", or if gcc cleanup attributes 
>had been used to handle cleanup, or if some kind of "defer" mechanism 
>had been used (as supported by some programming languages, and proposed 
>for a future C version).
>
>These various cleanup mechanisms can definitely be better than "goto 
>error", but they would not have prevented this error.  (A programming 
>language that requires braces for statements controlled by "if", on the 
>other hand, /would/ have prevented the error.)

Yes, the immediate cause of the error was the repeated `goto`;
whether the misleading indentation was observed by the
programmer or not I couldn't say, however.  I have no way of
knowing, but my sense at the time was that this was an example
of copy-paste gone wrong.  Wheeler suggested it might be due to
removal as well; that's plausable.

I do agree that a language where the grammar forced braces (or
the equivalent) around conditionals would have prevented this,
or at least made it much more obvious.  Notably, both Rust and
Go do that.  Both also have automated formatters that are used
as a matter of course, which would have made the error easier to
spot; compare to the myriad different individual styles of C and
C++, and paucity of effective formatters.

Another method, one that I don't particularly care for, would
have been to nest the conditionals on success; this gets ugly
because code tends to move towards the right, and deeply nested
control structures can be terribly confusing.

However, Ken Thompson used to commit this grave sin, which sort
of ameliorates the problem:

	if ((err = thing()) == SUCCESS)
	if ((err = other()) == SUCCESS)
	if ((err = third()) == SUCCESS)
		dosomething();
	return err;

One could, of course, string those conditional together into a
single `if` using `&&`, but Ken thought this was cleaner.

>> [snip]
>> Other languages feature "linear types", instances of which must
>> be used exactly once: failure to cleanup on an error path is a
>> compile time error.  This means that you can't forget to
>> deallocate memory, close a file, or unlock a mutex, for example,
>> but I don't know that it directly addresses the issue where you
>> just skip over the actual thing the program is supposed to do.
>> Still, with more expressive type systems, it is likely one can
>> much more easily structure the program so that the type of logic
>> that lead to this failure is unnecessary.
>
>There is definitely potential for a language's type system to make it 
>harder to make some kinds of mistakes.  But there is a risk in making 
>the language too restrictive - people end up writing horrible code to 
>work around restrictions, or use "unsafe" code too much.

Interesting.  I've found it to be somewhat the opposite; using a
richer type system has lead to code that is easier to understand
and reason about, and less buggy: type-oriented programming can
make entire categories of errors *unrepresentable*, so it's not
just _harder_ to make certain kinds of mistakes, but
_impossible_.  The existance of an object of some type can be
thought of as an existence proof that the invariants the type
represents hold.

And Alexis King wrote the great, "Parse, Don't Validate" essay
some years ago where she talks about "Type-Driven Development":
https://lexi-lambda.github.io/blog/2019/11/05/parse-don-t-validate/

More recently, Yaron Minsky gave a talk and discussed this in an
OCaml context (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUYP4C29yCw; the
most relevant bits start at about 6:35.  The talk is about AI
and constraining agents, but the discussion around types is more
general).

I wrote the production OS loader for Oxide compute sleds using
this technique in the virtual memory system (and other places):
the loader uses multiple page sizes, and the rule is that, when
mapping a region of memory, it uses the largest page size that
it can, given size and alignment constraints.  But I use the
type system to make it impossible to, say, map a 2MiB "large"
physical page frame to a non-2MiB aligned virtual boundary.

>I did some work, eons ago, in a language called XC that was specifically 
>for XMOS microcontrollers.  The language and tools had a feature that 
>made data races impossible by not allowing competing access to shared 
>variables from different threads.  Since threads were part of the 
>hardware, and the tools analysed the code flow through threads, this 
>could all be enforced at build time - data had to be passed in messages, 
>not shared memory.  But for some things that involved large buffers, 
>that was hopelessly inefficient - and these devices were regularly used 
>with USB, audio, and similar things that needed large and predictable 
>buffers.  So code - even library and example code from the manufacturer 
>- was full of inline assembly to work around the "smart-arse" language 
>and tools.

Hmm.  This reads less like an indictment of the idea of stronger
typing, but rather a failure to provide adequate abstractions in
the type system.

I'm going to mention Rust again; apologies.  When confined to
the safe subset, it _also_ has data race freedom.  The rules
that give this property are:

1. Every object has exactly one owner, and assignments of
   non-trivial types change ownership (they are logically a
   "move");
2. References to an object may be "borrowed" from the owner,
   and mutable references (that is, references that may be used
   to write to the object) are distinct from immutable
   references (that is, references that may only be used to read
   from an object);
3. Mutable and immutable references are temporally mutually
   exclusive: a mutable reference may be borrowed from an object
   iff that is the only live reference to that object at the
   time: that is, it is not permitted to borrow a mut ref to an
   object if either another mut ref or any immutable refs to it
   are live; any number of immutable references may be taken to
   an object concurrently.

If all of these rules are obeyed (and in safe rust, they're
verified at compile time by the borrow checker) then you cannot
have data races.

At first glance it appears that it must suffer from the same
drawbacks as `XC`, which you mentioned above.  Except that the
language does provide controlled ways to share data
concurrently.

Using the _unsafe_ subset, there is one place where it is
permitted to have multiple, mutable references to an object: the
`UnsafeCell`.  This gives Rust interior mutability, which means
that you can build safe abstractions for data sharing, like
`Mutex` types that own the data they protect.

That last bit is important: since the `Mutex` owns whatever it
protects, it controls access to that thing: there's no going
behind the `Mutex`'s back and accessing something outside of
the lock.  Instead, the `lock` method returns a `MutexGuard`
object, which one might think of as a handle to the data,
allowing the user to manipulate it, but also having a drop
method (in Rust, that's basically a destructor) that
automatically unlocks the mutex run the guard is destroyed.

Anyway, the point is, both the rigor _and_ the expressiveness of
the type system let you do things like this, whereas you just
cannot in C.

>> I understand that someone has written a paper proposing adding
>> `defer` to C; that would obviate many of these problems.
>
>Yes.  Jens Gustedt - one of the few members of the C standards committee 
>who is vocal and public about pushing new ideas into C.  (Of course not 
>everyone will agree with the ideas he comes with.)
>
><https://gustedt.wordpress.com/2026/02/15/defer-available-in-gcc-and-clang/>

Ah, I didn't realize it was Jens.  Very cool.

	- Dan C.

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switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-17 00:03 +0200
  Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-17 01:08 +0100
    Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-16 18:21 -0700
      Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-17 12:16 +0100
        Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-17 15:04 +0200
          Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-17 15:08 +0200
        Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-17 06:48 -0700
          Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2026-05-17 14:43 +0000
            Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-17 16:53 +0100
            Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-17 18:24 +0200
              Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-17 17:56 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-17 21:07 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-18 08:56 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-18 09:22 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-18 10:35 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-18 10:41 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-05-18 16:47 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-18 18:58 +0200
                Using "extra" blocks to declare local variables (Was: switch/extension for see below strongly needed) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-05-19 05:48 +0000
                Re: Using "extra" blocks to declare local variables (Was: switch/extension for see below strongly needed) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-19 08:18 +0200
                Re: Using "extra" blocks to declare local variables (Was: switch/extension for see below strongly needed) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-19 14:04 +0000
                Re: Using "extra" blocks to declare local variables (Was: switch/extension for see below strongly needed) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-22 23:44 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-18 18:13 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-18 18:37 +0000
                You are not allowed to use "the S word" in this ng. (Was: switch/extension for see below strongly needed) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-05-19 05:49 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 18:35 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-18 21:24 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 21:48 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 14:23 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-19 06:58 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-19 11:55 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2026-05-19 12:15 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-19 12:48 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-19 14:23 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-19 14:08 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-19 15:40 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-19 16:41 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-19 17:07 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-19 17:23 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-19 17:58 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-19 18:31 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-19 18:38 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-19 18:54 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-19 17:44 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-19 18:59 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-19 17:31 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-19 18:48 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-19 18:47 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-19 21:58 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-19 22:16 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-20 08:59 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-20 14:20 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-20 16:22 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-20 16:41 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-20 19:51 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-20 21:14 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-21 08:45 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 12:56 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-21 14:55 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 18:26 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-21 21:23 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 20:59 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-21 21:35 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 09:31 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-22 06:52 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 09:34 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 11:43 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-22 12:13 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 14:16 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-22 17:32 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 20:27 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-23 15:30 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-23 17:59 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-23 07:56 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 11:41 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 13:31 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 13:42 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 15:11 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-22 14:57 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-22 16:16 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-22 17:43 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-22 21:03 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-22 22:02 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-25 07:39 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 17:53 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-23 07:51 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-23 10:58 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-23 07:33 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-24 02:48 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-24 10:13 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-24 12:30 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-24 13:39 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed tTh <tth@none.invalid> - 2026-05-24 22:09 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-24 21:48 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-24 22:04 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-25 10:34 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 11:45 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 15:08 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 14:31 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-05-21 19:37 +0300
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 18:38 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-21 13:54 -0400
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 20:09 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-21 14:31 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-21 19:41 -0400
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-22 05:23 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-22 21:38 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-22 23:17 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 00:04 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-23 09:35 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-23 03:59 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-21 13:48 -0400
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-21 14:23 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 23:47 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-21 17:24 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 01:51 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-22 14:04 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 16:16 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 17:47 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 17:35 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-22 20:57 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-23 00:24 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-23 11:46 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-23 11:31 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-23 13:51 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-23 13:07 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-23 14:35 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-23 14:38 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-23 20:46 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-23 13:55 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-22 05:58 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-21 21:21 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-22 07:17 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 10:49 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-23 05:49 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-22 18:37 -0400
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-21 19:49 -0400
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-21 17:27 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 14:21 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 20:32 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 14:19 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 14:03 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-20 16:39 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-20 15:18 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-20 17:38 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-20 18:17 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-21 09:56 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-21 12:18 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-21 15:16 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-22 14:44 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-22 17:12 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-24 19:08 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-25 12:16 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-26 14:09 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-26 18:16 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-21 15:04 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-20 16:47 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-21 02:55 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 21:12 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-23 21:31 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-24 11:00 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-24 04:15 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-20 10:40 -0400
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-20 16:52 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-20 14:56 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-20 06:38 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 02:45 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 02:31 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-21 10:16 +0200
                [OT] Genie bug and fix (was Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-22 04:48 +0200
                Re: [OT] Genie bug and fix (was Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-22 05:02 +0200
                Re: [OT] Genie bug and fix (was Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-22 11:18 +0100
                Re: [OT] Genie bug and fix (was Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-23 09:21 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-20 06:24 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-20 11:55 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 02:30 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 02:21 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-20 18:51 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-05-21 11:46 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 14:56 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-21 15:12 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 16:47 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-05-21 19:27 +0300
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 20:03 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 19:42 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-21 19:46 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-21 20:08 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-19 14:34 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-19 15:01 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-19 15:15 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-20 09:24 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-20 03:26 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-19 13:29 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-19 16:46 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-05-19 13:56 +0000
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-19 14:27 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-19 12:35 -0400
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 11:57 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-18 13:57 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 14:18 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-18 16:07 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 14:12 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-18 07:17 +0000
            Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-17 23:30 +0000
              Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-18 09:02 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-18 09:38 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 10:50 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 10:00 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 16:31 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-19 09:18 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-19 10:00 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-19 10:34 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-19 14:19 -0700
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-20 04:09 +0200
            Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-19 11:43 -0400
        Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-18 01:22 +0000
          Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 11:23 +0100
            Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-18 11:07 +0000
              Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 14:10 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 15:01 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 14:33 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 16:39 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 16:12 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 17:35 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 16:59 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 16:25 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 17:50 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 18:21 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 17:29 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 17:04 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-18 16:31 +0100
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 18:12 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 18:24 +0200
                Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-18 14:40 -0700
    Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-17 14:57 +0200
      Re: switch/extension for see below strongly needed fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-17 16:06 +0200
  Re: multipass Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-17 05:50 +0000
    Re: multipass Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-17 11:26 +0100
      Re: multipass David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-18 09:08 +0200
    Re: multipass Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2026-05-17 17:31 +0200
    Re: multipass makendo <makendo@makendo.invalid> - 2026-05-24 01:14 +0800
      Re: multipass Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-27 01:05 +0000

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