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VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists

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  VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Sandwich <liam.whan@gmail.com> - 2012-05-19 22:10 -0700
    Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> - 2012-05-20 10:24 +0100
    Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-20 09:41 -0400
    Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Auric__" <not.my.real@email.address> - 2012-05-20 19:27 +0000
      Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Sandwich <liam.whan@gmail.com> - 2012-05-20 19:06 -0700
        Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-20 23:32 -0400
          Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Sandwich <liam.whan@gmail.com> - 2012-05-20 22:05 -0700
        Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2012-05-23 01:37 +1000
          Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-22 13:24 -0400
            Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-22 11:30 -0600
              Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-22 14:03 -0400
                Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-22 12:15 -0600
                  Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-22 15:05 -0400
                    Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-22 14:01 -0600
                      Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-22 17:29 -0400
                        Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-22 17:13 -0600
                          Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-23 09:10 -0400
                            Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-23 10:24 -0600
                    Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-22 14:37 -0600
                      Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-25 10:55 -0400
              Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-22 14:38 -0400
                Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-22 12:47 -0600
            Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2012-05-24 23:44 +1000
              Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-24 10:07 -0400
              Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> - 2012-05-24 16:07 +0100
                Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-24 09:57 -0600
                Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2012-05-25 18:39 +1000
                  Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> - 2012-05-25 11:23 +0100
                    Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2012-05-27 23:07 +1000
                      Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> - 2012-05-27 16:44 +0100
                      Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists ralph <nt_consulting64@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-27 17:12 -0500
                        Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> - 2012-05-30 07:04 +0100
                          Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists ralph <nt_consulting64@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-30 02:36 -0500
                            Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> - 2012-05-31 08:54 +0100
                              Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists ralph <nt_consulting64@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-31 10:33 -0500
                        Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2012-05-30 23:19 +1000
                          Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists ralph <nt_consulting64@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-30 14:09 -0500
          Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists GS <gs@somewhere.net> - 2012-05-25 13:44 -0400
            Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists -mhd <not_real@invalid.com> - 2012-05-25 17:47 -0400
              Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists GS <gs@somewhere.net> - 2012-05-25 19:51 -0400
        Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-22 11:09 -0600
          Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> - 2012-05-23 13:07 +0100
            Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-23 10:14 -0600
              Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Schmidt <sss@online.de> - 2012-05-24 20:38 +0200
                Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-24 15:46 -0600
                  Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> - 2012-05-25 06:52 +0100
                  Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Schmidt <sss@online.de> - 2012-05-25 11:14 +0200
                    Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "DaveO" <djo@dial.pipex.com> - 2012-05-25 10:57 +0100
                      Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Schmidt <sss@online.de> - 2012-05-25 13:36 +0200
                    Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-25 09:25 -0400
                    Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-25 10:12 -0600
                      Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-25 12:27 -0400
                        Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-25 14:22 -0600
                      Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Schmidt <sss@online.de> - 2012-05-26 18:38 +0200
                        Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-26 14:12 -0600
                          Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Henning" <computer_hero@coldmail.com> - 2012-05-26 23:31 +0200
                            Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-26 18:07 -0400
                              Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-26 16:50 -0600
                                Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-26 20:53 -0400
                                  Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcast.invalid> - 2012-05-26 20:31 -0600
                                    Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-27 09:49 -0400
                                Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> - 2012-05-29 12:50 -0700
                                  Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> - 2012-05-29 19:14 -0400
                                    Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists ralph <nt_consulting64@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-29 18:25 -0500
                                    Re: VB.net (2010) Beginner Question: Directory Lists "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> - 2012-05-30 06:51 +0100

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#1096

| Joe, you are by far the biggest FUD machine I've ever seen.  Seriously,
| you should stick to writting bad vb code and hta's (lol!).  You really
| have no idea about anything.  C++ shaky future?  Seriously, that one
| comment proves you are clueless when it comes to technology.
|

 I know you're not fond of understanding my points
when they conflict with your intended criticism, but
looking back at my earlier post, it's hard to see how
you could have managed to take my point so much
out of context that you heard me say simply that
C++ has no future.

  And FUD? Doesn't that mean "fear, uncertainty and
doubt"? Wouldn't you agree that I often have certainty
to a fault? :) What am I spreading doubt about? The
future of Windows? I thought I was portraying a
reasonably accurate picture of the relative merits of
VB vs .Net vs Windows scripting, for Sandwich's purposes.

The fear, uncertainty and doubt about the future of Windows
are.... quite certain, without a doubt! That's not my idea.
But of course it is from a certain point of view: A point of
view of someone who wants to be able to program in
Windows and use the product as they see fit. For you
it may be different. If you're happy loading .Net, in order
to load WinRT, in order to get a small subset of Windows
functionality in your "next-gen" HTA Metro app then you
may not be concerned about all of this. How is that Angry
Squirrels app coming, by the way? Will it be done in time
for the 3 dozen WinPhone8 customers, before they've
spent all their discretionary income on "Find My House"
and "Tell Me When I'm Out Of Toilet Paper" apps?

   Microsoft has billions to spend on propagandizing their
uniquely colorful version of truth. Yet when the occasional
nobody like myself tries to shed a bit of non-marketing light
on things you fume "FUD" and "Microsoft bashing". If I'm so
far out in left field then one has to wonder why you get so
worked up about it.

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#1097

on 5/22/2012, Mayayana supposed :
>> Joe, you are by far the biggest FUD machine I've ever seen.  
>> Seriously, you should stick to writting bad vb code and hta's 
>> (lol!).  You really have no idea about anything.  C++ shaky future?  
>> Seriously, that one comment proves you are clueless when it comes to 
>> technology.
>> 
>
>  I know you're not fond of understanding my points
> when they conflict with your intended criticism, but
> looking back at my earlier post, it's hard to see how
> you could have managed to take my point so much
> out of context that you heard me say simply that
> C++ has no future.
>
>   And FUD? Doesn't that mean "fear, uncertainty and
> doubt"? Wouldn't you agree that I often have certainty
> to a fault? :) What am I spreading doubt about? The
> future of Windows? I thought I was portraying a
> reasonably accurate picture of the relative merits of
> VB vs .Net vs Windows scripting, for Sandwich's purposes.
>

Nope.  You weren't.

> The fear, uncertainty and doubt about the future of Windows
> are.... quite certain, without a doubt! That's not my idea.
> But of course it is from a certain point of view: A point of
> view of someone who wants to be able to program in
> Windows and use the product as they see fit. For you
> it may be different. If you're happy loading .Net, in order
> to load WinRT, in order to get a small subset of Windows
> functionality in your "next-gen" HTA Metro app then you
> may not be concerned about all of this. 

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

-- 
Tom Shelton

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#1108

"Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

>| Only if your client/employer has signed in blood that they have read
>| and understood this document
>| <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/vstudio/ms788708.aspx?ppud=4>.
>|
>
>  In blood? You must have some rather oddball clients.

Is that expression not used in the United States?
>
>  That page basically says what I already explained: VB6 software
> is widely supported, from Win95 through Win8, but the VB6 IDE as
>a programming tool is no longer supported and won't be updated.
>So newer aspects like 64-bit software are not possible with VB6.
>

Agreed, and I think it is important to ensure that a client
understands that they are not getting programs written in Microsoft's,
or anybody else's, current preferred language. In your case they may
well decide that they are getting their preferred programmer and they
will leave the choice of language to you. That would be foolish if
they are giving the job to a novice programmer.

>   I've seen the argument put forth that Basic is poorly designed
>and sets bad habits for programmers. It's debated periodically on
>Slashdot. I still don't see exactly why that's the case. It's always
>seemed to me more of a matter of personal taste and pros/cons
>for a given job. The main point I see put forth is that VB allows
>one to be sloppy. Then again, so does the blade guard on a table
>saw. Surely the context of the job to be done has some bearing on
>how to choose a tool? Maybe C for drivers, B for database front-ends,
>and a blending in the spectrum in between?
>
>   Either way, I'm curious what you would suggest for a simple
>GUI program like that described.

I was faced with this choice and I chose Java plus the Netbeans IDE
that comes with a GUI designer that writes the Java GUI code for you.
After Microsoft abandoned VB Classic I was determined not to rely on
Microsoft again and I felt that IBM and/or Oracle would continue to
support Java.  I am an experienced programmer, including C, so Java
was not frightening and, if necessary, I can wade through the code
that Netbeans generates for a GUI.

I can't recommend this choice for a beginner and I don't know a
general purpose language that I would recommend to one.   

> .Net has gigantic dependencies
>and a questionable future. C++? That's an awfully lot of work, and
>GUIs are tedious at best. And even that may have a shaky future.
>Windows itself has a questionable future. One can use C++ to write
>to Metro, but why go to so much trouble when you can only access
>the WinRT wrapper sandbox? Since you're talking about a doomed
>future, presumably you're talking about Win9 in .... 2016? What if
>Win9 is Metro-only, and only MS software can run with the full API
>(as will be the case with WinARM)? Should people then just stick to
>javascript, on the assumption that it will be the lingua franca of a
>cloud-crazed future where accessing an OS API will be a thing of
>the past and the only widespread "programming" will be jazzed-up
>webpages? (Personally I don't like javascript, but it *is* popping
>up in an awfully lot of places.)
>
>  Auric_ mentioned the many other current Basic options. Do you
>consider all of them to be junk because of an inherent fault in
>the design of Basic-style languages?
>
>  I see no need to move from VB for many years to come, but if
>I were just starting now the choices would be far less clear.
>Windows programming is getting more restrictive. It's not clear
>how useful custom compiled software will be in the future. MacOS
>has always been restrictive. Linux will probably never be a suitable
>Desktop OS. I don't even own a cellphone and have no plans to
>buy one. Even if I did, having seen the shareware bubble come
>and go, I'm not anxious to jump on the "phone app" bandwagon.
>So for now I love VB and can do pretty much anything I need
>with it, but it would be hard to recommend it as a first choice
>to someone new.... except that I can't think of another first
>choice that would be unquestionably better, at least for general
>Windows "Desktop" software.
>
>   I don't know if I really have a point here. You just raised a
>couple of interesting issues; issues that are potentially transforming
>with the arrival of Metro and WinARM.

In your interesting coverage of the issues raised when choosing a
programming language you have omitted that of maintenance. I would
reject many languages including various flavours of BASIC because
there are not enough programmers familiar with the language. I would
also base my selection on a choice of development environments rather
than being dependant on a single IDE.

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#1109

|>| Only if your client/employer has signed in blood that they have read
|>| and understood this document
|>| <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/vstudio/ms788708.aspx?ppud=4>.
|>|

| >  In blood? You must have some rather oddball clients.
|
| Is that expression not used in the United States?

  Well, yes, in Indiana jones movies and the like. :)
Actually it was just meant as a slight tease because
it sounded very dramatic in the context.

| >   Either way, I'm curious what you would suggest for a simple
| >GUI program like that described.
|
| I was faced with this choice and I chose Java plus the Netbeans IDE
| that comes with a GUI designer that writes the Java GUI code for you.
| After Microsoft abandoned VB Classic I was determined not to rely on
| Microsoft again and I felt that IBM and/or Oracle would continue to
| support Java.  I am an experienced programmer, including C, so Java
| was not frightening and, if necessary, I can wade through the code
| that Netbeans generates for a GUI.
|
| I can't recommend this choice for a beginner and I don't know a
| general purpose language that I would recommend to one.
|

   Thank you. It's interesting to hear what different people
are doing. The speed of change just seems to keep
accelerating and it's hard to guess what the future landscape
will be. I know a Java programmer who works for Nokia.
Java seems to have served him well... though one has to
wonder whether Nokia itself will survive! 

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#1110

"Gordon Levi" <gordon@address.invalid> wrote in message 
news:79dsr7tmql4mbciloft7c1m4qrhkus6o9c@4ax.com...

> I was faced with this choice and I chose Java plus the
> Netbeans IDE that comes with a GUI designer that
> writes the Java GUI code for you.

I've been toying with the idea of having a look at Java myself, although I 
haven't done so yet. I'm purely a hobbyist myself and so I don't know 
whether Java would be of any use to someone who intends to make his living 
at programming, but I'm currently thinking about buying an Android Tablet 
and I think that Java would be the way to go for writing code to run on such 
machines, or on Android 'phones, at least from a hobbyist's perspective.

Mike

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#1111

It happens that Mike Williams formulated :
> "Gordon Levi" <gordon@address.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:79dsr7tmql4mbciloft7c1m4qrhkus6o9c@4ax.com...
>
>> I was faced with this choice and I chose Java plus the
>> Netbeans IDE that comes with a GUI designer that
>> writes the Java GUI code for you.
>
> I've been toying with the idea of having a look at Java myself, 
> although I haven't done so yet. I'm purely a hobbyist myself and so I 
> don't know whether Java would be of any use to someone who intends to 
> make his living at programming, but I'm currently thinking about 
> buying an Android Tablet and I think that Java would be the way to go 
> for writing code to run on such machines, or on Android 'phones, at 
> least from a hobbyist's perspective.
>
> Mike

Java is really the only way to go for android for a hobbyist.

-- 
Tom Shelton

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#1115

"Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:

>"Gordon Levi" <gordon@address.invalid> wrote in message 
>news:79dsr7tmql4mbciloft7c1m4qrhkus6o9c@4ax.com...
>
>> I was faced with this choice and I chose Java plus the
>> Netbeans IDE that comes with a GUI designer that
>> writes the Java GUI code for you.
>
>I've been toying with the idea of having a look at Java myself, although I 
>haven't done so yet. I'm purely a hobbyist myself and so I don't know 
>whether Java would be of any use to someone who intends to make his living 
>at programming, but I'm currently thinking about buying an Android Tablet 
>and I think that Java would be the way to go for writing code to run on such 
>machines, or on Android 'phones, at least from a hobbyist's perspective.

Unfortunately, Google chose to release their development tools
<http://developer.android.com/> for the Eclipse IDE
<http://www.eclipse.org/>. In addition, their GUI is not the
conventional Swing Java GUI. There are some WYSIWIG design tools for
Android but they are fairly primitive. If your only programming
experience is VB "Classic" you are in for a _very_ steep learning
curve and I would suggest you write a simple Java desktop application
using Netbeans <http://netbeans.org/> before you embark on writing an
Android app.

You will find the folks at comp.lang.java.programmer generally very
helpful. Roedy Green is a regular contributor and he has provided a
"Getting Started" guide here -
<http://mindprod.com/jgloss/gettingstarted.html>.

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#1118

"Gordon Levi" <gordon@address.invalid> wrote in message 
news:uggur7dvbttit9m770k8uajlifatsskume@4ax.com...
> "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:
>> I've been toying with the idea of having a look at Java,
>> although I haven't done so yet. I'm purely a hobbyist myself
>> and so I don't know whether Java would be of any use to
>> someone who intends to make his living at programming, but
>> I'm currently thinking about buying an Android Tablet and
>> I think that Java would be the way to go for writing code to
>> run on such machines, or on Android 'phones, at least from
>> a hobbyist's perspective.
>
> If your only programming experience is VB "Classic" you
> are in for a _very_ steep learning curve . . .

A steep learning curve wouldn't normally bother me if I thought there were 
many years of usefulness to be got out of what I learned, but at my age I 
don't think I'll have that ;-)  The only programming experience I have other 
than various dialects of BASIC is machine code, initially without the help 
of an Assembler and later with one, but that was in the days of the 6502 and 
later the 68000 when I became quite proficient at using machine code on 
computers such  the Oric and the C64 and the Amiga. However, in those days 
processors and the machines they drove were much simpler, so I don't think 
that experience will be of much use to me today!

> . . . and I would suggest you write a simple Java desktop
> application using Netbeans <http://netbeans.org/> before
> you embark on writing an Android app.

Thanks. I'll have a look at that.

Mike

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#1135

"Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:

>"Gordon Levi" <gordon@address.invalid> wrote in message 
>news:uggur7dvbttit9m770k8uajlifatsskume@4ax.com...
>> "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:
>>> I've been toying with the idea of having a look at Java,
>>> although I haven't done so yet. I'm purely a hobbyist myself
>>> and so I don't know whether Java would be of any use to
>>> someone who intends to make his living at programming, but
>>> I'm currently thinking about buying an Android Tablet and
>>> I think that Java would be the way to go for writing code to
>>> run on such machines, or on Android 'phones, at least from
>>> a hobbyist's perspective.
>>
>> If your only programming experience is VB "Classic" you
>> are in for a _very_ steep learning curve . . .
>
>A steep learning curve wouldn't normally bother me if I thought there were 
>many years of usefulness to be got out of what I learned, but at my age I 
>don't think I'll have that ;-)  The only programming experience I have other 
>than various dialects of BASIC is machine code, initially without the help 
>of an Assembler and later with one, but that was in the days of the 6502 and 
>later the 68000 when I became quite proficient at using machine code on 
>computers such  the Oric and the C64 and the Amiga. However, in those days 
>processors and the machines they drove were much simpler, so I don't think 
>that experience will be of much use to me today!

On the contrary. Your machine code (I'm assuming assembly language)
experience is ideal as an introduction to Java. Java is a successor to
C++ and C was originally intended to simplify assembly language
programming. You will recognise the low level machine operations that
underly Java although I agree that assembly language programming on a
modern processor would be a much more daunting task than the
processors you list. Java even has a ++ operator straight from
PDP11/68000 machine code.

There are two further obstacles. If, like me, you have ignored the
basics of object oriented programming when programming in VB you will
need to learn them. The second is getting to grips with the libraries
that are the real basis of Java. In addition to the standard libraries
there are hundreds of others and it is likely that if you want to do
something there is a library for it if only one can find it.

Judging from the other posts in this thread it seems wise not to rely
on Microsoft for one's next language!

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#1137

"Gordon Levi" <gordon@address.invalid> wrote in message 
news:1u84s7h0p9366lc56tij3qqlkd7pqaa0fb@4ax.com...
>
> On the contrary. Your machine code (I'm assuming assembly
> language) experience is ideal as an introduction to Java.

Actually on the 6502 I used to jot down the mnemonics together with the 
appropriate data bytes on a sheet of paper (so I could write whether I was 
at my computer or not) and then look up and enter the appropriate hex 
numbers into data strings on my computer when I got the chance. 
Surprisingly, after some time doing this, I ended up with the hex numbers 
for the various instructions inside my head, so I could skip one of the 
steps! This was in the days of the 6502 of course (and 6510), which from 
memory had only about 253 instructions. I could write only relatively simple 
routines this way of course, and so I soon decided to write a simple 
Assembler (in C64 Basic) which helped me a great deal and which served me 
fine.

> Java is a successor to C++ and C was originally intended to
> simplify assembly language programming. You will recognise
> the low level machine operations that underly Java although
> I agree that assembly language programming on a modern
> processor would be a much more daunting task than the
> processors you list. Java even has a ++ operator straight from
> PDP11/68000 machine code.

Yes, that's the thing that worries me, the complexity of modern processors 
and the complexity of the operating system and of the machines themselves. I 
wasn't kidding when I said "I might not have enough time left to make it 
worthwhile" because I am on the final approach to my biblically allotted 
three score years and ten! I might still give it a go though.

> There are two further obstacles. If, like me, you have ignored
> the basics of object oriented programming when programming
> in VB you will need to learn them.

Yeah. I have. I have never been really comfortable with any high level 
language really, even with VB6 until I got used to it, because it means 
learning and abiding by other people's rules. I was far more at home with 
Assembler, where all I needed to know was the start address of the screen 
memory and the details of the I/O of the built in sound and graphics chips 
and the world was my oyster. Those days have well and truly gone though :-(

> Judging from the other posts in this thread it seems wise not
> to rely on [as an alternative] Microsoft for one's next language!

I'll drink to that ;-)

Mike

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#1139

On Sun, 27 May 2012 23:07:52 +1000, Gordon Levi
<gordon@address.invalid> wrote:

>>>
>>> If your only programming experience is VB "Classic" you
>>> are in for a _very_ steep learning curve . . .
>>
>>A steep learning curve wouldn't normally bother me if I thought there were 
>>many years of usefulness to be got out of what I learned, but at my age I 
>>don't think I'll have that ;-)  The only programming experience I have other 
>>than various dialects of BASIC is machine code, initially without the help 
>>of an Assembler and later with one, but that was in the days of the 6502 and 
>>later the 68000 when I became quite proficient at using machine code on 
>>computers such  the Oric and the C64 and the Amiga. However, in those days 
>>processors and the machines they drove were much simpler, so I don't think 
>>that experience will be of much use to me today!
>
>On the contrary. Your machine code (I'm assuming assembly language)
>experience is ideal as an introduction to Java. Java is a successor to
>C++ and C was originally intended to simplify assembly language
>programming. You will recognise the low level machine operations that
>underly Java although I agree that assembly language programming on a
>modern processor would be a much more daunting task than the
>processors you list. Java even has a ++ operator straight from
>PDP11/68000 machine code.
>

That is a rather extraordinary observation, as Java was designed from
the ground up to be completely independent of any specific hardware
implementation. It takes its syntax from, designed to have a simpler
object model, and to have fewer 'lower-level' facilities than C++. Any
"low level machine operations" that you seem to recognize as
underlying the Java language are likely imaginary.

While any prior programming experience helps in learning a new
language/platform (including an active imagination), IMHO, I would
rank "machine code" rather far down the list for learning Java.

One of the best prior language/platform experiences for learning Java
is another object-oriented and class-based language - like VB for
example. <g>

>There are two further obstacles. If, like me, you have ignored the
>basics of object oriented programming when programming in VB you will
>need to learn them. The second is getting to grips with the libraries
>that are the real basis of Java. In addition to the standard libraries
>there are hundreds of others and it is likely that if you want to do
>something there is a library for it if only one can find it.
>

And not surprising since the Java language is object-oriented and
class-based. Duh.

-ralph

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#1144

"ralph" <nt_consulting64@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:ac75s7dd70j8geu5cv3m3uh3hn4vr485h8@4ax.com...
>
> While any prior programming experience helps in learning
> a new language/platform (including an active imagination),
> IMHO, I would rank "machine code" rather far down the
> list for learning Java.

If Java is what you say it is then I'm sure you're right about that, but why 
have you put the phrase machine code in quotes? Is there something you don't 
like about that phrase?

Mike

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#1145

On Wed, 30 May 2012 07:04:44 +0100, "Mike Williams"
<Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:

>"ralph" <nt_consulting64@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
>news:ac75s7dd70j8geu5cv3m3uh3hn4vr485h8@4ax.com...
>>
>> While any prior programming experience helps in learning
>> a new language/platform (including an active imagination),
>> IMHO, I would rank "machine code" rather far down the
>> list for learning Java.
>
>If Java is what you say it is then I'm sure you're right about that, but why 
>have you put the phrase machine code in quotes? Is there something you don't 
>like about that phrase?
>
>Mike
>

One is never quite sure what someone might mean by "machine code",
especially when used in the same context as writing. Mr. Levi
qualified the OP's use of the term with "Your machine code (I'm
assuming assembly language) ...". Which would be my guess as well. But
then Mr. Levi went on to note the similarity of a Java operator to
"machine code" - perhaps once again meaning assembly language. 

-ralph

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#1148

"ralph" <nt_consulting64@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:m0hbs712bu92ti39tjvm04qmgqqbcnbttg@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 30 May 2012 07:04:44 +0100, "Mike Williams"
>> If Java is what you say it is then I'm sure you're right about
>> that, but why have you put the phrase machine code in
>> quotes? Is there something you don't like about that phrase?
>
> One is never quite sure what someone might mean by
> "machine code", especially when used in the same context
> as writing. Mr. Levi qualified the OP's use of the term with
> "Your machine code (I'm assuming assembly language) ...".
> Which would be my guess as well.

Oh, right. I just wondered what you were implying, especially since your 
post was written after I had already amplified what I had meant myself by 
the phrase "machine code" when I told Gordon Levi that I used to write the 
mnemonics and their accompanying data bytes onto a piece of paper whenever I 
had time to do a bit of coding, calculating the values for the relative 
branches etc manually, and then later when I was on my computer typing all 
the appropriate hex numbers directly into BASIC data strings so that I could 
dump the data to memory and send the processor to it. That was what I 
personally meant by "machine code", which is about the lowest level you can 
get with a machine (except of course for the micro code that only the 
designers of the processor chip deal with). An Assembler was not involved at 
all, at least not until many months later when I decided to write my own 
simple Assembler in BASIC. That was in the old days of course. I certainly 
wouldn't like to try that on today's machines!

Mike

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#1149

On Thu, 31 May 2012 08:54:08 +0100, "Mike Williams"
<Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:

>"ralph" <nt_consulting64@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
>news:m0hbs712bu92ti39tjvm04qmgqqbcnbttg@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 30 May 2012 07:04:44 +0100, "Mike Williams"
>>> If Java is what you say it is then I'm sure you're right about
>>> that, but why have you put the phrase machine code in
>>> quotes? Is there something you don't like about that phrase?
>>
>> One is never quite sure what someone might mean by
>> "machine code", especially when used in the same context
>> as writing. Mr. Levi qualified the OP's use of the term with
>> "Your machine code (I'm assuming assembly language) ...".
>> Which would be my guess as well.
>
>Oh, right. I just wondered what you were implying, especially since your 
>post was written after I had already amplified what I had meant myself by 
>the phrase "machine code" when I told Gordon Levi that I used to write the 
>mnemonics and their accompanying data bytes onto a piece of paper whenever I 
>had time to do a bit of coding, calculating the values for the relative 
>branches etc manually, and then later when I was on my computer typing all 
>the appropriate hex numbers directly into BASIC data strings so that I could 
>dump the data to memory and send the processor to it. That was what I 
>personally meant by "machine code", which is about the lowest level you can 
>get with a machine (except of course for the micro code that only the 
>designers of the processor chip deal with). An Assembler was not involved at 
>all, at least not until many months later when I decided to write my own 
>simple Assembler in BASIC. That was in the old days of course. I certainly 
>wouldn't like to try that on today's machines!
>

Those were fun days. 

Back in '81/82, while I had been programming for five years on "real
computers" I really had only a vague understanding of how computers
actually worked at the hardware level, as "real computers" were a
collection of big mystery boxes kept behind glass doors, and guarded
by people who only sneered or told you to RTFM if questioned.

My wife took a BASIC class, and complained one day about not getting
any 'computer time' - so I went out and bought a 'Toy' Atari 800. She
never really got much time with it either - I took it over. <g>

I was totally enthralled - there were all the 'mystery boxes' bundled
together in one case. I was also lucky to pickup, what they called, a
'machine language monitor'. So I was never reduced to typing pure
data. I also discovered a C compiler with the wonderful name - "Deep
Blue C". <g> So to do my "machine coding" I would write something
close in C - disassemble it, then chew on the assembly.

Later on when the IBM PC came along, I discovered MASM and the tons of
binary libraries (and 'macros') available. I combined that tool with
my old trick of writing the program basics in C and dumping the
assembly.

So while, during the early years I noted various "Assembly Languages"
on my resume, had a decent number of projects to my credit, viewed
literally reams and reams of assembly, and impressed clients on
numerous occasions with how fast I was able to deliver "machine coded"
solutions - in 30 years I have actually written comparatively few
lines of machine code. <bg>

-ralph

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#1146

ralph <nt_consulting64@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 27 May 2012 23:07:52 +1000, Gordon Levi
><gordon@address.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> If your only programming experience is VB "Classic" you
>>>> are in for a _very_ steep learning curve . . .
>>>
>>>A steep learning curve wouldn't normally bother me if I thought there were 
>>>many years of usefulness to be got out of what I learned, but at my age I 
>>>don't think I'll have that ;-)  The only programming experience I have other 
>>>than various dialects of BASIC is machine code, initially without the help 
>>>of an Assembler and later with one, but that was in the days of the 6502 and 
>>>later the 68000 when I became quite proficient at using machine code on 
>>>computers such  the Oric and the C64 and the Amiga. However, in those days 
>>>processors and the machines they drove were much simpler, so I don't think 
>>>that experience will be of much use to me today!
>>
>>On the contrary. Your machine code (I'm assuming assembly language)
>>experience is ideal as an introduction to Java. Java is a successor to
>>C++ and C was originally intended to simplify assembly language
>>programming. You will recognise the low level machine operations that
>>underly Java although I agree that assembly language programming on a
>>modern processor would be a much more daunting task than the
>>processors you list. Java even has a ++ operator straight from
>>PDP11/68000 machine code.
>>
>
>That is a rather extraordinary observation, as Java was designed from
>the ground up to be completely independent of any specific hardware
>implementation. It takes its syntax from, designed to have a simpler
>object model, and to have fewer 'lower-level' facilities than C++. Any
>"low level machine operations" that you seem to recognize as
>underlying the Java language are likely imaginary.

I gave the ++ example which is a straight carryover from C and was
included in C because ++ is implemented in hardware on the PDP11. Most
high level languages prefer "n := n+1" rather than introducing special
operators for special cases just because the hardware supports them.
>
>While any prior programming experience helps in learning a new
>language/platform (including an active imagination), IMHO, I would
>rank "machine code" rather far down the list for learning Java.

You are almost certainly wrong. Some understanding of the underlying
hardware is invaluable when learning to program in any language
(except Lisp!). With Java, in particular, a knowledge of a machine
code provides an easy transition to understanding the JVM.
>
>One of the best prior language/platform experiences for learning Java
>is another object-oriented and class-based language

Agreed.
> - like VB for
>example. <g>

As both Mike Williams and I have admitted it is easy to write in VB
Classic without thinking in terms of objects and classes.

>>There are two further obstacles. If, like me, you have ignored the
>>basics of object oriented programming when programming in VB you will
>>need to learn them. The second is getting to grips with the libraries
>>that are the real basis of Java. In addition to the standard libraries
>>there are hundreds of others and it is likely that if you want to do
>>something there is a library for it if only one can find it.
>>
>
>And not surprising since the Java language is object-oriented and
>class-based. Duh.

I posted in the hope that I was providing some helpful advice to Mike
Williams because I had already encountered some difficulties that I
thought he might find. Why did you post? I ask because I have observed
that "Duh" usually indicates a desire to show off rather than help.

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#1147

On Wed, 30 May 2012 23:19:00 +1000, Gordon Levi
<gordon@address.invalid> wrote:

>>
>>And not surprising since the Java language is object-oriented and
>>class-based. Duh.
>
>I posted in the hope that I was providing some helpful advice to Mike
>Williams because I had already encountered some difficulties that I
>thought he might find. Why did you post? I ask because I have observed
>that "Duh" usually indicates a desire to show off rather than help.


Probably. <g>

Any unsolicited attempt to edify can always be construed as "showing
off" and my "folly meter" was approaching the red zone.
In any case IMHO your observations were not sound.

>Most
>high level languages prefer "n := n+1" rather than introducing special
>operators for special cases just because the hardware supports them

Wrong again.

Most "high-level languages" don't support a unary increment operator,
because if they did then they would also likely have to support both
forms - a prefix; a value after, and a postfix; a value before - an
unnecessary complication as positional semantics and extra operators
tend to reduce clarity in an environment where clarity is the goal.

The real error in your observations is drawing inferences between
language 'instructions' and machine 'instructions' that are not
warranted, but common enough - I've done it myself on occasion.

And easily done since the whole point of a programming language IS to
convert language instructions into machine instructions. (I'll give
myself a Duh! there. <g>) With any conversion process, at any level of
abstraction, there is always an analogy that can be drawn, but I doubt
an analogy based on comparing 'language' operators to specific machine
operators is useful. If that were true one might make the case that VB
is close to machine code because 
     A = 2
may look suspiciously similar to a MOV instruction. <g>
[Goto..., unconditional jumps???]

Consider that the ultimate 'machine code' (or a VM's expression of it)
conversion from "n+1" could just as easily be an INC or not, and
equally "++n" could just as easily be an INC or not - all depending on
context and the whim of a compiler. Thus there is no way "++" in
C/C++, Java, C#, ... , can ever be viewed as an implementation of a
hardware ability.

For another example, take C/C++. It is not considered a "lower-level"
language because it has operators which look like machine
instructions, but because it has facilities to manage registers and
memory directly. I'm not particularly surprised that the elemental
language operators for performing such low-level elemental
manipulations appear to have a one-to-one relationship with the
machine code that ultimately perform the task.

The illusion that C/C++ code is only slightly removed from machine
code is strengthened by the relatively short path from here to there
taken. For example VC's ...
    script -> compiler -> machine code
But that too doesn't make it so.

It is harder to imagine with Java as the path is ...
    script -> compiler -> bytecode -> virtual machine 
       (... -> machine code??? I'll leave that for another day. <g>)
And some effort has gone into making sure Java can't easily manipulate
memory, but apparently some still make the attempt to do so.

>As both Mike Williams and I have admitted it is easy to write in VB
>Classic without thinking in terms of objects and classes.
>

Ahhh, the beauty of a good OOP platform. You don't have to think about
them but they be there working their dear little hearts out for you
just the same.

Your over-all experience would be slightly different if the VBEditor
didn't do all the work for you. Imagine if you had to type all the
language elements you see when you view the VB files (.vbp, .bas, ...)
outside the VBEditor.

-ralph

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#1124

<FWIW>
IMO, as long as VBA continues to be the macro language of choice for MS 
Office and other apps that use it, Classic VB will live on! Note that 
VBA7 is x64 and other than using conditional declares (so far, at 
least), all my Classic VB[A} code runs just fine there. In facts, 
thanks to Olaf Schmidt, my existing x32 VB DLLs work in Office x64 too!

-- 
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
ClassicVB Users Regroup!
    comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
    microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

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#1126

GS <gs@somewhere.net> wrote:

><FWIW>
>IMO, as long as VBA continues to be the macro language of choice for MS 
>Office and other apps that use it, Classic VB will live on! Note that 
>VBA7 is x64 and other than using conditional declares (so far, at 
>least), all my Classic VB[A} code runs just fine there. In facts, 
>thanks to Olaf Schmidt, my existing x32 VB DLLs work in Office x64 too!

Did I miss something? Is there a way to get 32bit com addins to work in Outlook
x64?

-mike

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#1127

-mhd explained on 5/25/2012 :
> GS <gs@somewhere.net> wrote:
>
>> <FWIW>
>> IMO, as long as VBA continues to be the macro language of choice for MS 
>> Office and other apps that use it, Classic VB will live on! Note that 
>> VBA7 is x64 and other than using conditional declares (so far, at 
>> least), all my Classic VB[A} code runs just fine there. In facts, 
>> thanks to Olaf Schmidt, my existing x32 VB DLLs work in Office x64 too!
>
> Did I miss something? Is there a way to get 32bit com addins to work in 
> Outlook x64?
>
> -mike

I was not talking about COMAddins, only DLLs. COMAddins need to be 
registered and my apps run reg-free because they need to be portable 
(ie: run from a memstick) and so I don't use the Registry or register 
OCXs/DLLs due to using a manifest.

Olaf introduced the concept of using an ActiveX.exe as a 'proxy server' 
between a VBA project and VB6 DLLs. I use VB6 DLLs with Excel addins, 
where the addin only creates toolbar/menus and passes the 
CommandBar.ActionControl.Tag[Parameter] contents to an entry point 
procedure that then runs the appropriate code via 'CallByName'. The 
proc name is stored in 'Tag' and its args (if any) are stored in 
'Parameter'.

-- 
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
ClassicVB Users Regroup!
    comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
    microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

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