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Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism)

From	André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.theory, comp.ai.philosophy, comp.ai.nat-lang, sci.lang.semantics
Subject	Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism)
Date	2020-07-03 13:07 -0600
Organization	Christians and Atheists United Against Creeping Agnosticism
Message-ID	<rdnvla$q5c$2@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(19 earlier) <rdmgi6$r2m$1@dont-email.me> <bI2dnR28Eult8mLDnZ2dnUU7-LvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <rdnsrg$7mp$2@dont-email.me> <PaednQlKlcip4mLDnZ2dnUU7-ePNnZ2d@giganews.com> <rdnviu$q5c$1@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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On 2020-07-03 13:06, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2020-07-03 12:55, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/3/2020 1:19 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2020-07-03 11:50, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/3/2020 12:43 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>> On 2020-07-02 23:36, olcott wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> If a formal system cannot prove φ and the same formal system 
>>>>>> cannot prove ¬φ then something is screwy with φ.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Q, neither x + y = y + x nor x + y ≠ y + x are provable.
>>>>>
>>>>> What exactly is "screwy" with x + y = y + x?
>>>>
>>>> That is merely an expressivity limitation.
>>>
>>> What is that supposed to mean?
>>>
>>> x + y = y + x is perfectly expressible in Q. But it isn't provable in Q.
>>>
>>> Ergo, Q is incomplete.
>>>
>>> André
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Q is incomplete because it lacks commutativity?
> 
> There's absolutely no reason to believe that Q lacks commutativity of 
> addition. But it is not something which cannot be proven within Q.

Typo --- replace that last sentence with 'it is not something which can 
be proven within Q'.

> Q is incomplete because it is not possible to derive the statement x + y 
> = y + x from the axioms of Q. Nor is it possible to derive the statement 
> x + y ≠ y + x from the axioms of Q.
> 
> x + y = y + x is perfectly well-formed in Q. It simply is not provable.
> 
> Therefore there is some φ such that neither φ nor ¬φ is provable in Q 
> which, as has been discussed ad nauseam, is one definition of 
> incompleteness. There is no way around this fact. Q is incomplete.
> 
> Saying there is an 'expressivity limitation' (whatever you mean by that) 
> doesn't get around this fact.
> 
> André
> 


-- 
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail 
service.

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Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-26 20:03 -0500
  Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 11:04 -0500
  Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 11:14 -0500
    Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 11:58 -0500
      Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 17:09 -0500
        Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 20:15 -0500
        Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-28 16:32 -0500
          Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-28 21:45 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 21:27 -0600
              Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 21:59 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 00:48 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 23:57 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 13:28 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 12:33 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 14:33 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 13:52 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 15:02 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 14:14 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 15:39 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 15:13 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 17:09 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 21:21 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 01:09 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 00:24 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 16:46 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 16:46 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 18:24 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 18:15 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 19:33 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 19:18 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 20:34 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 20:06 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 21:31 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 20:54 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-01 11:03 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-01 10:35 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-01 17:35 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-01 22:47 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 07:01 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 10:51 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 10:46 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 13:59 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 13:37 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 09:52 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-02 15:06 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 10:56 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-02 22:52 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 18:35 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-02 23:48 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 18:57 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 22:03 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 23:13 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 00:36 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 23:43 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 12:50 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 12:19 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 13:21 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 12:33 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 13:48 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 13:55 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 13:06 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 13:07 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 12:56 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 14:14 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 13:38 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 15:59 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 22:54 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 08:56 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-04 08:12 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 10:06 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-04 09:31 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V20 (Text Analysis) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 14:31 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V20 (Text Analysis) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-04 15:17 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V20 (Text Analysis) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 17:29 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-05 13:01 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-05 16:40 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-05 23:52 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-06 00:53 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-06 10:15 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-06 10:48 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-06 13:55 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-07 22:13 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-07 22:44 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-06 11:49 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-06 11:27 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-07 22:22 -0500

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