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Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak)

From Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.theory, comp.ai.philosophy, comp.ai.nat-lang, sci.lang.semantics
Subject Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak)
Date 2020-07-06 00:53 -0700
Organization None to speak of
Message-ID <87o8otaxka.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <_LqdnXUL8tmZBp3CnZ2dnUU7-aXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <rdq7c2$hhv$1@dont-email.me> <R9SdnQ9mEaMTiJ_CnZ2dnUU7-UnNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zh8dbkev.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <3I-dnWs52teNM5_CnZ2dnUU7-Y3NnZ2d@giganews.com>

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
> On 7/5/2020 6:40 PM, Keith Thompson wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>> On 7/4/2020 10:31 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2020-07-04 09:06, olcott wrote:
>> [...]
>>>>> Whenever-so-ever there is no connected chain of inference from the
>>>>> WFF premises to the WFF conclusion we have an invalid argument.
>>>>
>>>> But how does that help get around incompleteness?
>>>
>>> In order to use the term "incompleteness" correctly and not as
>>> misnomer a thing must be incomplete relative to something that is
>>> missing.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>>> When Q lacks commutativity then Q is incomplete relative to
>>> commutativity. To assign terms of the art tho meanings having nothing
>>> to do with their base meaning is a bastardization of the communication
>>> process.
>>
>> No, it's a use of well defined terminology in a technical field.
>>
>> There is a long tradition in technical fields of redefining English
>> words with narrower and more precise meanings.  (I could give you
>> multiple examples from computer science.)  We can either repurpose
>> existing words or invent new ones.  Experience has generally shown
>> that repurposing existing words tends to work better.
>>
> It is all well and good if the technical meaning inherits from the
> common base meaning providing increased specificity. It is when the
> technical meaning replaces the common meaning with an incompatible
> meaning that I find very disturbing.

As I understand it, the technical definition of "incomplete"
is clear and unambiguous.  In particular, Gödel proof was about
"incompleteness" as defined in mathematical logic.  The English
meaning has nothing to do with it.

Are you blaming Gödel for using the word "incompleteness" in a manner
that you don't approve of?  Regardless of whether you approve of it or
not, do you understand what Gödel meant by it?

> When we make this perfectly concrete and use this definition of
> incompleteness, that would make perfect sense (iff it was true):

What do you mean by "this definition"?

> On 7/5/2020 5:28 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
>>
>> Then Goedel showed that that there were propositions that were true
>> but not provable.
>
> On the other hand the inability of a formal system to prove that
> self-contradictory expressions of language are true or false does not
> actually make the formal system incomplete in any way what-so-ever.

We're not talking about self-contradictory expressions.

> If this make formal systems incomplete then the formal system of human
> knowledge would be incomplete entirely on the basis of not being able
> to prove the liar paradox true or false: "this sentence is not true".

"This sentence is not true" is not something that appears in Gödel's
proof.  (By all means correct me if I'm mistaken on that point.)

> Therefore this The conventional definition of incompleteness:
> A theory T is incomplete if and only if there is some sentence φ such
> that (T ⊬ φ) and (T ⊬ ¬φ) is no good. It has overreach.

Overreach?  It's a definition.  Do you have some concrete criticism
of that definition other than "overreach" (which I interpret to
mean that you personally dislike it)?

Just for a moment, let's drop the word "incompleteness", since it
seems to disturb you.

As I understand it, Gödel proved that for every formal axiomatic
system T capable of modelling basic arithmetic, there is some
sentence φ such that (T ⊬ φ) and (T ⊬ ¬φ).  (Some of
that was copy-and-pasted from Wikipedia.)  Can you refute that?
If you can, it's likely that I wouldn't understand the refutation,
but there are others here who would.

> See V24 for proof that there are no propostions that are both true and
> unprovable within the same formal system when formal systems are
> required to conform to the sound deductive inference model.

If that's correct, then Gödel wasn't talking about formal systems
that conform to your idea of "the sound deductive inference model"
(whatever that means).  If you want to refute Gödel, you need to
talk about the same systems he was talking about.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips Healthcare
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-26 20:03 -0500
  Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 11:04 -0500
  Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 11:14 -0500
    Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 11:58 -0500
      Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 17:09 -0500
        Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-27 20:15 -0500
        Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-28 16:32 -0500
          Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-28 21:45 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 21:27 -0600
              Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 21:59 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 00:48 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-28 23:57 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 13:28 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 12:33 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 14:33 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 13:52 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 15:02 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 14:14 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 15:39 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 15:13 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-29 17:09 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-29 21:21 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 01:09 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 00:24 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 16:46 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 16:46 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 18:24 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 18:15 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 19:33 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 19:18 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 20:34 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 20:06 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-06-30 21:31 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-06-30 20:54 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-01 11:03 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-01 10:35 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-01 17:35 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-01 22:47 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 07:01 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 10:51 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 10:46 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 13:59 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 13:37 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 09:52 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-02 15:06 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 10:56 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-02 22:52 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 18:35 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2020-07-02 23:48 +0000
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 18:57 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-02 22:03 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 23:13 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 00:36 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-02 23:43 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 12:50 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 12:19 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 13:21 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 12:33 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 13:48 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 13:55 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 13:06 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 13:07 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 12:56 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 14:14 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 13:38 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-03 15:59 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-03 22:54 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 08:56 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-04 08:12 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 10:06 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V13 (Isomorphism) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-04 09:31 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V20 (Text Analysis) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 14:31 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V20 (Text Analysis) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-04 15:17 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V20 (Text Analysis) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-04 17:29 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-05 13:01 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-05 16:40 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-05 23:52 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-06 00:53 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-06 10:15 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-06 10:48 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-06 13:55 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-07 22:13 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-07 22:44 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-06 11:49 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-06 11:27 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V23 (Newspeak) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-07 22:22 -0500

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