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Re: VHS Tape Collectors

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  Re: VHS Tape Collectors felix <felix@real_felix.invalid> - 2017-03-20 13:42 +1100
    Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-20 11:03 +0800
      Re: VHS Tape Collectors BruceS <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-20 14:18 -0600
        Re: VHS Tape Collectors not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2017-03-20 22:15 +0000
          Re: VHS Tape Collectors Lucifer Morningstar <Barry@saymyname.com> - 2017-03-21 10:09 +1100
            Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-21 08:51 +0800
              Re: VHS Tape Collectors Lucifer Morningstar <Barry@saymyname.com> - 2017-03-21 13:34 +1100
          Re: VHS Tape Collectors felix <felix@real_felix.invalid> - 2017-03-21 11:47 +1100
            Re: VHS Tape Collectors not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2017-03-22 22:21 +0000
        Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-21 06:47 +0800
          Re: VHS Tape Collectors felix <felix@real_felix.invalid> - 2017-03-21 15:24 +1100
            Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-21 14:10 +0800
              Re: VHS Tape Collectors BruceS <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-21 10:17 -0600
                Re: VHS Tape Collectors Jeßus <j@j.net> - 2017-03-22 09:18 +1100
                  Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-22 13:31 +0800
                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors BruceS <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-22 10:04 -0600
                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors Jeßus <j@j.net> - 2017-03-23 06:30 +1100
                Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-22 19:28 +1000
                  Re: VHS Tape Collectors Trevor <trevor@home.net> - 2017-03-22 21:29 +1100
                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-22 20:41 +1000
                      Re: VHS Tape Collectors Trevor <trevor@home.net> - 2017-03-24 12:23 +1100
                      Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-25 10:05 +0800
                  Re: VHS Tape Collectors Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2017-03-22 20:22 +0000
                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-23 10:26 +1000
                  Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-23 12:28 +0800
                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-23 16:20 +1000
                      Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-23 22:45 +0800
                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2017-03-23 14:39 +0000
                      Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-24 22:20 +0800
                        Re: VHS Tape Collectors Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2017-03-24 14:55 +0000
                          Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-25 07:04 +0800
                            Re: VHS Tape Collectors Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2017-03-26 20:14 +0000
                              Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-04-04 17:43 +0800
                                Re: VHS Tape Collectors Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> - 2017-04-05 07:44 +1000
                                  Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-04-05 08:07 +0800
                                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-04-05 14:26 +1000
                                      Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-04-05 14:05 +0800
                                        Re: VHS Tape Collectors felix <felix@real_felix.invalid> - 2017-04-05 19:34 +1000
                                          Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-04-05 21:20 +1000
                                        Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-04-05 21:19 +1000
                          Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-25 12:26 +1000
                            Re: VHS Tape Collectors "Blue Heeler" <woof@barque.org> - 2017-03-25 02:47 +0000
                              Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-25 13:47 +1000
                                Re: VHS Tape Collectors "Blue Heeler" <woof@barque.org> - 2017-03-25 03:56 +0000
                                  Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-25 15:36 +1000
          Re: VHS Tape Collectors Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2017-03-22 20:09 +0000
            Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-23 12:38 +0800
              Re: VHS Tape Collectors Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2017-03-23 14:34 +0000
                Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-24 06:49 +0800
        Re: VHS Tape Collectors felix <felix@real_felix.invalid> - 2017-03-21 11:42 +1100
          Re: VHS Tape Collectors BruceS <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-21 10:24 -0600
        Re: VHS Tape Collectors Trevor <trevor@home.net> - 2017-03-21 18:50 +1100
          Re: VHS Tape Collectors BruceS <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-21 10:31 -0600
            Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-22 07:53 +0800

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#59271

On 22/03/2017 9:41 PM, keithr0 wrote:
> The CDC 405 card reader was an interesting piece of kit, the cards were
> fed horizontally. To reduce friction the card trays vibrated, for some
> reason, on night shift, it wasn't unusual to find a female operator
> sitting on the card tray.

;-) :-)

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#59275

On 22/03/2017 6:41 PM, keithr0 wrote:
> On 3/22/2017 8:29 PM, Trevor wrote:
>> On 22/03/2017 8:28 PM, keithr0 wrote:
>>> The first program that I ever wrote had to be punched up on paper tape
>>> on an ASR-33 teletype. Then the paper tape with the compiler had to be
>>> loaded on to the computer followed by the source code tape from the
>>> previous step. The computer then punched a tape with the compiled
>>> program. Then the run time tape was loaded, followed by the compiled
>>> tape. Then the program would run.
>>
>> Geez I thought it was bad enough punching paper tapes for program code,
>> at least the OS/compiler was on mag tape.
>>
>>
>>> Editing a paper tape was a bastard of a job, using punch card seemed a
>>> real step forward.
>>
>> I started out hand punching cards and that was a real bastard. Teletype
>> was a step forward for me.
>>
>> Trevor.
>>
>>
> I've never hand punched cards, punching a program on a deck of cards at
> least meant that to change a statement just meant pulling a card and
> replacing it rather than juggling tapes.
>
> The CDC 405 card reader was an interesting piece of kit, the cards were
> fed horizontally. To reduce friction the card trays vibrated, for some
> reason, on night shift, it wasn't unusual to find a female operator
> sitting on the card tray.

lol

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#59257

keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
[...]
> The first program that I ever wrote had to be punched up on paper tape 
> on an ASR-33 teletype. Then the paper tape with the compiler had to be 
> loaded on to the computer followed by the source code tape from the 
> previous step. The computer then punched a tape with the compiled 
> program. Then the run time tape was loaded, followed by the compiled 
> tape. Then the program would run.
> 
> Editing a paper tape was a bastard of a job, using punch card seemed a 
> real step forward.

  Yep, been there, done that, got the T-shirt: Assembly code and FORTRAN
on HP 2116, etc. computers.

  Anecdote:

  I *started* on these computers with a BASIC interpreter which only
needed to be loaded from papertape once and then stayed in core memory.
So you could just type in your program and run it. Only when the program
was fully tested, you would write it to a short papertape.

  Next, my experienced colleague gave a demonstration for a customer and
he was juggling with papertapes like you described. I had no idea about
this stuff and really thought he was losing his mind, because how could
it be so difficult for him, while it was so simple for me? So I sneaked
out of the room and told my manager that <so_and_so> was going bezerk
and could he please try to salvage the situation. My manager then
educated me and explained that this Assembly/FORTRAN(/Algol?) stuff was
*really* that difficult!

  Lots and lots of papertape after that! :-)

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#59261

On 3/23/2017 6:22 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>> The first program that I ever wrote had to be punched up on paper tape
>> on an ASR-33 teletype. Then the paper tape with the compiler had to be
>> loaded on to the computer followed by the source code tape from the
>> previous step. The computer then punched a tape with the compiled
>> program. Then the run time tape was loaded, followed by the compiled
>> tape. Then the program would run.
>>
>> Editing a paper tape was a bastard of a job, using punch card seemed a
>> real step forward.
>
>   Yep, been there, done that, got the T-shirt: Assembly code and FORTRAN
> on HP 2116, etc. computers.
>
>   Anecdote:
>
>   I *started* on these computers with a BASIC interpreter which only
> needed to be loaded from papertape once and then stayed in core memory.
> So you could just type in your program and run it. Only when the program
> was fully tested, you would write it to a short papertape.
>
>   Next, my experienced colleague gave a demonstration for a customer and
> he was juggling with papertapes like you described. I had no idea about
> this stuff and really thought he was losing his mind, because how could
> it be so difficult for him, while it was so simple for me? So I sneaked
> out of the room and told my manager that <so_and_so> was going bezerk
> and could he please try to salvage the situation. My manager then
> educated me and explained that this Assembly/FORTRAN(/Algol?) stuff was
> *really* that difficult!
>
>   Lots and lots of papertape after that! :-)
>
I was writing in FORTRAN on an SDS910 computer, the power of which would 
make my phone look like a super-computer. The machine was at the Island 
Lagoon (Woomera) NASA deep space tracking station, it was just a backup 
and little used. My job was to drive the 85' dish, but on 16 hour tracks 
there wasn't really much to do. I got interested in programming, someone 
lent me a FORTRAN manual and a sample program, and I set to to write a 
program to calculate my wages under the space tracking award. The first 
effort was huge, but then I discovered this thing called looping, and in 
the end it was quite a neat program for a first effort.

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#59262

On 22/03/2017 5:28 PM, keithr0 wrote:
> On 3/22/2017 2:17 AM, BruceS wrote:
>> On 03/21/2017 12:10 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 21/03/2017 12:24 PM, felix wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, 21 Mar 2017 9:47 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>> On 21/03/2017 4:18 AM, BruceS wrote:
>>>>>> On 03/19/2017 09:03 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>>> On 20/03/2017 10:42 AM, felix wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> not really, just put a card in to give you ide ports, or use an
>>>>>>>> IDE to
>>>>>>>> SATA adapter. or you could use a docking station
>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/kwhx75u
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I do have an adapter, so I can plug in one EIDE drive at a time, and
>>>>>> transfer whatever seems to be of value to the newer machine's
>>>>>> drive, or
>>>>>> to a separate backup.  That's probably what I'll do, though I also
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> a crossover cable, so with the right setup I could transfer between
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> machines.  I don't think any of this is worth the cost and trouble of
>>>>>> getting a new controller card.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a few USB external drives here and simply plug in the drive to
>>>>> whatever interface matches. Not an elegant solution, but it works.
>>>>
>>>> I have three external boxes USB permanently connected, two SATA and one
>>>> IDE. very handy. just pop whatever drive you want to use in
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here again the storage limits are laughable in today's terms.  The
>>>>>>>>> biggest EIDE drive I have is 80GB,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have 120Gb, 80Gb, 40Gb, and even a 10GB. I also have a 25mb HD
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> still works!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How is it worth running tiny hard drives when you can put it all on a
>>>>>> flash drive for little cost, no moving parts, and easy connection to
>>>>>> any modern machine?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think he means he's running them but that they still work.
>>>>
>>>> yes
>>
>> Even so, to me that's just clutter.  I'm pretty bad about keeping old
>> junk, being a pack rat, but I'm trying to improve.  I once helped a
>> friend whose church group was helping an old church member replace his
>> water heater.  The old guy lived in a trailer, and the clutter in it
>> was unbelievable.  From the front door, there was a path to the kitchen
>> sink; the rest of that room was full of piles of things like
>> newspapers, stacked several feet high.  Some other rooms were similarly
>> full, with little actual living space.  I don't want to end up like
>> that guy, especially as my house is somewhat larger, so the amount of
>> clutter it could hold would be enormous.  Every once in a while, I go
>> through, trying to get rid of junk.  Tiny drives definitely fit that
>> description for me, as did the tapes, floppies, etc.  I think even the
>> 200GB hard drive will be counted as clutter during this round of
>> cleanup.
>>
>>>>> I have a collection of drives that are sometimes used to
>>>>> resurrect/test or repair vintage stuff but they don't see regular use
>>>>> nor do they have anything that's important on them (or it's been
>>>>> backed up elsewhere).
>>>>>
>>>>> Flash drives fail too btw as flash memory has limited write/erase
>>>>> cycles (albeit it 10's of thousands+). Whilst that might not affect
>>>>> drives used for backups (but can if you run some operating systems
>>>>> from one)
>>>>>
>>>>> Having said that, I've had only one fail that was used for data
>>>>> transfer.
>>
>> I hadn't heard that flash had failures within any conceivable usage
>> level.  I'll have to look into that, as my main computer (the one I'm
>> on now) uses an SSD for the OS.  It has a 1TB drive, but drunken me
>> used fdisk, without even having written down the pre-edit numbers, much
>> less doing a backup first.  I've tried a couple of tools to recover it,
>> but without success.  I can't even recall just what's on it that I care
>> about, though I think there are a bunch of pictures.  The pack rat side
>> of me hates the idea of repartitioning it and losing all that.  So I
>> keep using the SSD instead.
>>
>>>>>>> I have two or three 40mb drives that still work. One MFM/RLL drive
>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>> portable that still works too but each time I fire it up I'm
>>>>>>> afraid it
>>>>>>> will be it's last. Those old things don't fill you with much
>>>>>>> confidence
>>>>>>> as they chug away.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The dodgiest drive still in regular use is in an old Compaq Armada
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> I use with my EPROMmer and for diagnostics on older vehicles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's drive developed bad sectors 10+ years ago and I simply
>>>>>>> partitioned
>>>>>>> them out as a temporary measure and it's remained that way since.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's another point against the old, small-capacity drives.  I was a
>>>>>> bit relieved that all my old drives even run.  Once I get the good
>>>>>> data
>>>>>> off them, I'll probably clear them and either give or throw them
>>>>>> away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This particular one sees regular use and should be backed up... one
>>>>> day.
>>>>>
>>>>> The laptop has a primitive USB port so the entire contents of the HDD
>>>>> could be put on a 2GB USB stick even so there is no excuse.
>>
>> Given my own record for doing backups, I'm not one to criticize, but I
>> strongly suggest you do that backup before the failure, rather than
>> after.
>>
>>>>>>>>> while I have a 256GB thumb drive.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I also still have a few 3.5" floppies ("stiffies")
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> none of that dirty talk here, thank you! lol.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> , which I could read
>>>>>>>>> on the old machine, and then transfer to the new if there's any
>>>>>>>>> value
>>>>>>>>> to it.  That's a big "if".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I still have a 3.5 floppy drive in the current machine. even have a
>>>>>>>> 5.25" drive in one PC
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a separate machine for that which also has a 3.5" and 5.25"
>>>>>>> floppy. I've used it to recover and write floppies for other 8 bit
>>>>>>> computers (like a TRS-80 model 1 for instance).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You wouldn't happen to have a paper tape reader as well, would you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No I don't and I don't know anyone who has one.
>>>>> Do you have some paper tapes and what were they from?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think it was humour considering all the old stuff you (we) have
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, I was wondering, but I was asked in all seriousness once.
>>
>> Yes, that was just humor.  We had one for an old mainframe I worked on,
>> along with the card readers.  That machine also had hard drives the
>> size of washing machines.  I think they held something like 5MB each.
>> We used those big reel-to-reel tape drives for backup, and stored the
>> tapes in a highly secure vault, with fire protection, etc.  At one
>> point I realized how long it had been since they'd changed the
>> combination on the vault, and that most of the people who'd known it
>> were no longer employees.
>
> The first program that I ever wrote had to be punched up on paper tape
> on an ASR-33 teletype. Then the paper tape with the compiler had to be
> loaded on to the computer followed by the source code tape from the
> previous step. The computer then punched a tape with the compiled
> program. Then the run time tape was loaded, followed by the compiled
> tape. Then the program would run.
>
> Editing a paper tape was a bastard of a job, using punch card seemed a
> real step forward.
>
>


The most primitive computer I programmed had a card reader. You would 
use a pencil to mark the boxes and the card reader would then load the 
program and run it.

I thought it was called something like the System 2000 but I could be wrong.

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#59264

On 3/23/2017 2:28 PM, Clocky wrote:
> On 22/03/2017 5:28 PM, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 3/22/2017 2:17 AM, BruceS wrote:
>>> On 03/21/2017 12:10 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>>> On 21/03/2017 12:24 PM, felix wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, 21 Mar 2017 9:47 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>> On 21/03/2017 4:18 AM, BruceS wrote:
>>>>>>> On 03/19/2017 09:03 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 20/03/2017 10:42 AM, felix wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> not really, just put a card in to give you ide ports, or use an
>>>>>>>>> IDE to
>>>>>>>>> SATA adapter. or you could use a docking station
>>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/kwhx75u
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do have an adapter, so I can plug in one EIDE drive at a time, and
>>>>>>> transfer whatever seems to be of value to the newer machine's
>>>>>>> drive, or
>>>>>>> to a separate backup.  That's probably what I'll do, though I also
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> a crossover cable, so with the right setup I could transfer between
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> machines.  I don't think any of this is worth the cost and
>>>>>>> trouble of
>>>>>>> getting a new controller card.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a few USB external drives here and simply plug in the drive to
>>>>>> whatever interface matches. Not an elegant solution, but it works.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have three external boxes USB permanently connected, two SATA and
>>>>> one
>>>>> IDE. very handy. just pop whatever drive you want to use in
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here again the storage limits are laughable in today's terms.
>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>> biggest EIDE drive I have is 80GB,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have 120Gb, 80Gb, 40Gb, and even a 10GB. I also have a 25mb HD
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> still works!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How is it worth running tiny hard drives when you can put it all
>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>> flash drive for little cost, no moving parts, and easy connection to
>>>>>>> any modern machine?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think he means he's running them but that they still work.
>>>>>
>>>>> yes
>>>
>>> Even so, to me that's just clutter.  I'm pretty bad about keeping old
>>> junk, being a pack rat, but I'm trying to improve.  I once helped a
>>> friend whose church group was helping an old church member replace his
>>> water heater.  The old guy lived in a trailer, and the clutter in it
>>> was unbelievable.  From the front door, there was a path to the kitchen
>>> sink; the rest of that room was full of piles of things like
>>> newspapers, stacked several feet high.  Some other rooms were similarly
>>> full, with little actual living space.  I don't want to end up like
>>> that guy, especially as my house is somewhat larger, so the amount of
>>> clutter it could hold would be enormous.  Every once in a while, I go
>>> through, trying to get rid of junk.  Tiny drives definitely fit that
>>> description for me, as did the tapes, floppies, etc.  I think even the
>>> 200GB hard drive will be counted as clutter during this round of
>>> cleanup.
>>>
>>>>>> I have a collection of drives that are sometimes used to
>>>>>> resurrect/test or repair vintage stuff but they don't see regular use
>>>>>> nor do they have anything that's important on them (or it's been
>>>>>> backed up elsewhere).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Flash drives fail too btw as flash memory has limited write/erase
>>>>>> cycles (albeit it 10's of thousands+). Whilst that might not affect
>>>>>> drives used for backups (but can if you run some operating systems
>>>>>> from one)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having said that, I've had only one fail that was used for data
>>>>>> transfer.
>>>
>>> I hadn't heard that flash had failures within any conceivable usage
>>> level.  I'll have to look into that, as my main computer (the one I'm
>>> on now) uses an SSD for the OS.  It has a 1TB drive, but drunken me
>>> used fdisk, without even having written down the pre-edit numbers, much
>>> less doing a backup first.  I've tried a couple of tools to recover it,
>>> but without success.  I can't even recall just what's on it that I care
>>> about, though I think there are a bunch of pictures.  The pack rat side
>>> of me hates the idea of repartitioning it and losing all that.  So I
>>> keep using the SSD instead.
>>>
>>>>>>>> I have two or three 40mb drives that still work. One MFM/RLL drive
>>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>> portable that still works too but each time I fire it up I'm
>>>>>>>> afraid it
>>>>>>>> will be it's last. Those old things don't fill you with much
>>>>>>>> confidence
>>>>>>>> as they chug away.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The dodgiest drive still in regular use is in an old Compaq Armada
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> I use with my EPROMmer and for diagnostics on older vehicles.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's drive developed bad sectors 10+ years ago and I simply
>>>>>>>> partitioned
>>>>>>>> them out as a temporary measure and it's remained that way since.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's another point against the old, small-capacity drives.  I
>>>>>>> was a
>>>>>>> bit relieved that all my old drives even run.  Once I get the good
>>>>>>> data
>>>>>>> off them, I'll probably clear them and either give or throw them
>>>>>>> away.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This particular one sees regular use and should be backed up... one
>>>>>> day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The laptop has a primitive USB port so the entire contents of the HDD
>>>>>> could be put on a 2GB USB stick even so there is no excuse.
>>>
>>> Given my own record for doing backups, I'm not one to criticize, but I
>>> strongly suggest you do that backup before the failure, rather than
>>> after.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> while I have a 256GB thumb drive.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I also still have a few 3.5" floppies ("stiffies")
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> none of that dirty talk here, thank you! lol.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> , which I could read
>>>>>>>>>> on the old machine, and then transfer to the new if there's any
>>>>>>>>>> value
>>>>>>>>>> to it.  That's a big "if".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I still have a 3.5 floppy drive in the current machine. even
>>>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>>>> 5.25" drive in one PC
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have a separate machine for that which also has a 3.5" and 5.25"
>>>>>>>> floppy. I've used it to recover and write floppies for other 8 bit
>>>>>>>> computers (like a TRS-80 model 1 for instance).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You wouldn't happen to have a paper tape reader as well, would you?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No I don't and I don't know anyone who has one.
>>>>>> Do you have some paper tapes and what were they from?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it was humour considering all the old stuff you (we) have
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I was wondering, but I was asked in all seriousness once.
>>>
>>> Yes, that was just humor.  We had one for an old mainframe I worked on,
>>> along with the card readers.  That machine also had hard drives the
>>> size of washing machines.  I think they held something like 5MB each.
>>> We used those big reel-to-reel tape drives for backup, and stored the
>>> tapes in a highly secure vault, with fire protection, etc.  At one
>>> point I realized how long it had been since they'd changed the
>>> combination on the vault, and that most of the people who'd known it
>>> were no longer employees.
>>
>> The first program that I ever wrote had to be punched up on paper tape
>> on an ASR-33 teletype. Then the paper tape with the compiler had to be
>> loaded on to the computer followed by the source code tape from the
>> previous step. The computer then punched a tape with the compiled
>> program. Then the run time tape was loaded, followed by the compiled
>> tape. Then the program would run.
>>
>> Editing a paper tape was a bastard of a job, using punch card seemed a
>> real step forward.
>>
>>
>
>
> The most primitive computer I programmed had a card reader. You would
> use a pencil to mark the boxes and the card reader would then load the
> program and run it.
>
> I thought it was called something like the System 2000 but I could be
> wrong.
>
>
That was called an optical mark reader. They were popular back in the 
mid 70s, but were not terribly reliable if the mark was not good enough.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#59267

On 23/03/2017 2:20 PM, keithr0 wrote:
> On 3/23/2017 2:28 PM, Clocky wrote:

<snip>


>> I thought it was called something like the System 2000 but I could be
>> wrong.
>>
>>
> That was called an optical mark reader. They were popular back in the
> mid 70s, but were not terribly reliable if the mark was not good enough.

Yep, I remember it as being fairly unreliable. Had to recheck and remark 
the cards frequently.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#59266

Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
[...]
> The most primitive computer I programmed had a card reader. You would 
> use a pencil to mark the boxes and the card reader would then load the 
> program and run it.
> 
> I thought it was called something like the System 2000 but I could be wrong.

  What was the programming language?
  
  If BASIC, it may have been a HP (Hewlett Packard) 2000 Time Share
System. Those systems often had an optical marked-card reader, so users
- often students - could write their programs offline, needing only a
pencil. It was one of the genarations of HP computers I supported
(working for HP).

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#59272

On 23/03/2017 10:39 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> [...]
>> The most primitive computer I programmed had a card reader. You would
>> use a pencil to mark the boxes and the card reader would then load the
>> program and run it.
>>
>> I thought it was called something like the System 2000 but I could be wrong.
>
>   What was the programming language?
>
>   If BASIC, it may have been a HP (Hewlett Packard) 2000 Time Share
> System. Those systems often had an optical marked-card reader, so users
> - often students - could write their programs offline, needing only a
> pencil. It was one of the genarations of HP computers I supported
> (working for HP).
>


I'm pretty sure it was BASIC. There was a terminal that looked 70's era. 
Black keyboard integrated in with the CRT very basic looking thing.

Yes, we would all fill our cards in to program it and then feed them in 
to program it. Pretty sure you could do a BASIC listing once loaded.

But, it's from very distant memory and I really can't recall much more 
about it.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#59273

Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> On 23/03/2017 10:39 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> > [...]
> >> The most primitive computer I programmed had a card reader. You would
> >> use a pencil to mark the boxes and the card reader would then load the
> >> program and run it.
> >>
> >> I thought it was called something like the System 2000 but I could
> >> be wrong.
> >
> >   What was the programming language?
> >
> >   If BASIC, it may have been a HP (Hewlett Packard) 2000 Time Share
> > System. Those systems often had an optical marked-card reader, so users
> > - often students - could write their programs offline, needing only a
> > pencil. It was one of the genarations of HP computers I supported
> > (working for HP).
> 
> I'm pretty sure it was BASIC. There was a terminal that looked 70's era. 
> Black keyboard integrated in with the CRT very basic looking thing.
> 
> Yes, we would all fill our cards in to program it and then feed them in 
> to program it. Pretty sure you could do a BASIC listing once loaded.
> 
> But, it's from very distant memory and I really can't recall much more 
> about it.

  The system was probably similar to this one.

<http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=411>

  This is the second generation version, because it has two 2100A/S
computers, instead of 2116 (2114?) ones, and a 7905 moving-head disc
(no, not disk), instead of earlier head-per track ones. On the
bottom-right the papertape reader and on the top-left a (7970B)
reel-to-reel tape drive.

  The card-reader probably looked like this:

<http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=277>

  The terminal probably was one of these ones:

<http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=94>

  'My' (Delta werken) system looked like the left-cabinet of the 2000F
Time Share System, with the addition of the papertape reader. It's
computer probably was a newer one, of the 21MX series:

<http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=108>

  Thanks for letting me have another look in the HP Computer Museum!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#59274

On 24/03/2017 10:55 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>> On 23/03/2017 10:39 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> The most primitive computer I programmed had a card reader. You would
>>>> use a pencil to mark the boxes and the card reader would then load the
>>>> program and run it.
>>>>
>>>> I thought it was called something like the System 2000 but I could
>>>> be wrong.
>>>
>>>   What was the programming language?
>>>
>>>   If BASIC, it may have been a HP (Hewlett Packard) 2000 Time Share
>>> System. Those systems often had an optical marked-card reader, so users
>>> - often students - could write their programs offline, needing only a
>>> pencil. It was one of the genarations of HP computers I supported
>>> (working for HP).
>>
>> I'm pretty sure it was BASIC. There was a terminal that looked 70's era.
>> Black keyboard integrated in with the CRT very basic looking thing.
>>
>> Yes, we would all fill our cards in to program it and then feed them in
>> to program it. Pretty sure you could do a BASIC listing once loaded.
>>
>> But, it's from very distant memory and I really can't recall much more
>> about it.
>
>   The system was probably similar to this one.
>
> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=411>
>
>   This is the second generation version, because it has two 2100A/S
> computers, instead of 2116 (2114?) ones, and a 7905 moving-head disc
> (no, not disk), instead of earlier head-per track ones. On the
> bottom-right the papertape reader and on the top-left a (7970B)
> reel-to-reel tape drive.
>

For some reason the parts on the right of darker colour between the top 
section and the bottom section looks very familiar. What is/are those 
component(s)?

>   The card-reader probably looked like this:
>
> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=277>

Yes, I'm pretty sure that is it.

>
>   The terminal probably was one of these ones:
>
> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=94>
>

Again, that too.

>   'My' (Delta werken) system looked like the left-cabinet of the 2000F
> Time Share System, with the addition of the papertape reader. It's
> computer probably was a newer one, of the 21MX series:
>
> <http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=108>
>
>   Thanks for letting me have another look in the HP Computer Museum!
>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#59281

Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> On 24/03/2017 10:55 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> >> On 23/03/2017 10:39 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >>> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> >>> [...]
> >>>> The most primitive computer I programmed had a card reader. You would
> >>>> use a pencil to mark the boxes and the card reader would then load the
> >>>> program and run it.
> >>>>
> >>>> I thought it was called something like the System 2000 but I could
> >>>> be wrong.
> >>>
> >>>   What was the programming language?
> >>>
> >>>   If BASIC, it may have been a HP (Hewlett Packard) 2000 Time Share
> >>> System. Those systems often had an optical marked-card reader, so users
> >>> - often students - could write their programs offline, needing only a
> >>> pencil. It was one of the genarations of HP computers I supported
> >>> (working for HP).
> >>
> >> I'm pretty sure it was BASIC. There was a terminal that looked 70's era.
> >> Black keyboard integrated in with the CRT very basic looking thing.
> >>
> >> Yes, we would all fill our cards in to program it and then feed them in
> >> to program it. Pretty sure you could do a BASIC listing once loaded.
> >>
> >> But, it's from very distant memory and I really can't recall much more
> >> about it.
> >
> >   The system was probably similar to this one.
> >
> > <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=411>
> >
> >   This is the second generation version, because it has two 2100A/S
> > computers, instead of 2116 (2114?) ones, and a 7905 moving-head disc
> > (no, not disk), instead of earlier head-per track ones. On the
> > bottom-right the papertape reader and on the top-left a (7970B)
> > reel-to-reel tape drive.
> 
> For some reason the parts on the right of darker colour between the top 
> section and the bottom section looks very familiar. What is/are those 
> component(s)?

  That's the disc drive. According to the page it's a 7905 (I thought it
was a 7900). The 7905 [1] had the - still unchallenged :-) - breath
taking capacity of 15MB, 5MB fixed and 10MB removable:

<http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=276>

  The capacity of these disc drives was ridiculous! Who would *ever*
need *that* much storage!?

  That's why the Series 2000 Time Share Systems first started with much
more sensible head-per-track drives with a more-than-enough capacity of
no less than 348160 bytes! They were tiny drives, not much bigger than a
large washing machine and at $23500, they were a steal! Only 7 cents a
byte!

<http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=548>

  And yup, I (mostly software) supported all that stuff as well.

[1] If you opened one of these babies, you *had* to take your watch off,
because if you didn't, your wrist would be jammed to the magnets of the
actuator, destroying your watch and possibly breaking your wrist.

[...]

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#59417

On 27/03/2017 4:14 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>> On 24/03/2017 10:55 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>> On 23/03/2017 10:39 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>>> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> The most primitive computer I programmed had a card reader. You would
>>>>>> use a pencil to mark the boxes and the card reader would then load the
>>>>>> program and run it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought it was called something like the System 2000 but I could
>>>>>> be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>   What was the programming language?
>>>>>
>>>>>   If BASIC, it may have been a HP (Hewlett Packard) 2000 Time Share
>>>>> System. Those systems often had an optical marked-card reader, so users
>>>>> - often students - could write their programs offline, needing only a
>>>>> pencil. It was one of the genarations of HP computers I supported
>>>>> (working for HP).
>>>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure it was BASIC. There was a terminal that looked 70's era.
>>>> Black keyboard integrated in with the CRT very basic looking thing.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we would all fill our cards in to program it and then feed them in
>>>> to program it. Pretty sure you could do a BASIC listing once loaded.
>>>>
>>>> But, it's from very distant memory and I really can't recall much more
>>>> about it.
>>>
>>>   The system was probably similar to this one.
>>>
>>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=411>
>>>
>>>   This is the second generation version, because it has two 2100A/S
>>> computers, instead of 2116 (2114?) ones, and a 7905 moving-head disc
>>> (no, not disk), instead of earlier head-per track ones. On the
>>> bottom-right the papertape reader and on the top-left a (7970B)
>>> reel-to-reel tape drive.
>>
>> For some reason the parts on the right of darker colour between the top
>> section and the bottom section looks very familiar. What is/are those
>> component(s)?
>
>   That's the disc drive. According to the page it's a 7905 (I thought it
> was a 7900). The 7905 [1] had the - still unchallenged :-) - breath
> taking capacity of 15MB, 5MB fixed and 10MB removable:
>
> <http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=276>
>
>   The capacity of these disc drives was ridiculous! Who would *ever*
> need *that* much storage!?
>
>   That's why the Series 2000 Time Share Systems first started with much
> more sensible head-per-track drives with a more-than-enough capacity of
> no less than 348160 bytes! They were tiny drives, not much bigger than a
> large washing machine and at $23500, they were a steal! Only 7 cents a
> byte!
>
> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=548>
>
>   And yup, I (mostly software) supported all that stuff as well.
>
> [1] If you opened one of these babies, you *had* to take your watch off,
> because if you didn't, your wrist would be jammed to the magnets of the
> actuator, destroying your watch and possibly breaking your wrist.
>
> [...]
>


I can imagine. I salvage the neodymium magnets from dead hard drives. If 
you want to stick something to your fridge, they will do the job really 
well :-)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#59423

>>
>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=548>
>>
>>   And yup, I (mostly software) supported all that stuff as well.
>>
>> [1] If you opened one of these babies, you *had* to take your watch off,
>> because if you didn't, your wrist would be jammed to the magnets of the
>> actuator, destroying your watch and possibly breaking your wrist.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>
>
>I can imagine. I salvage the neodymium magnets from dead hard drives. If 
>you want to stick something to your fridge, they will do the job really 
>well :-)
>

Be sure to leave the metal plating on the magnet, because the magnet
itself rusts fairly quickly.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#59427

On 5/04/2017 5:44 AM, Peter Jason wrote:
>
>>>
>>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=548>
>>>
>>>   And yup, I (mostly software) supported all that stuff as well.
>>>
>>> [1] If you opened one of these babies, you *had* to take your watch off,
>>> because if you didn't, your wrist would be jammed to the magnets of the
>>> actuator, destroying your watch and possibly breaking your wrist.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>
>>
>> I can imagine. I salvage the neodymium magnets from dead hard drives. If
>> you want to stick something to your fridge, they will do the job really
>> well :-)
>>
>
> Be sure to leave the metal plating on the magnet, because the magnet
> itself rusts fairly quickly.
>

NI never considered that but yes, I use them as they come out of the 
hard drive.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#59430

On 4/5/2017 10:07 AM, Clocky wrote:
> On 5/04/2017 5:44 AM, Peter Jason wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=548>
>>>>
>>>>   And yup, I (mostly software) supported all that stuff as well.
>>>>
>>>> [1] If you opened one of these babies, you *had* to take your watch
>>>> off,
>>>> because if you didn't, your wrist would be jammed to the magnets of the
>>>> actuator, destroying your watch and possibly breaking your wrist.
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I can imagine. I salvage the neodymium magnets from dead hard drives. If
>>> you want to stick something to your fridge, they will do the job really
>>> well :-)
>>>
>>
>> Be sure to leave the metal plating on the magnet, because the magnet
>> itself rusts fairly quickly.
>>
>
> NI never considered that but yes, I use them as they come out of the
> hard drive.

I've a bunch of magnets that I bought for cents from a street stall in 
Apiliu street in Hong Kong. The bigger ones, about 4cm diameter helped 
recover some large nuts that had fallen inside an aircraft wing. We just 
ran the magnets over the outside of the aluminium and dragged the nuts 
to a place where they could be recovered. The small ones about 1cm 
diameter will hold any thin non-ferrous object to a steel surface, they 
hold small tools to the wall of my shed.

BTW, if you ever go to Hong Kong, Apiliu Street is a must to visit, 
hundreds of street stalls and shops selling everything electronic and 
electrical.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#59432

On 5/04/2017 12:26 PM, keithr0 wrote:
> On 4/5/2017 10:07 AM, Clocky wrote:
>> On 5/04/2017 5:44 AM, Peter Jason wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=548>
>>>>>
>>>>>   And yup, I (mostly software) supported all that stuff as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] If you opened one of these babies, you *had* to take your watch
>>>>> off,
>>>>> because if you didn't, your wrist would be jammed to the magnets of
>>>>> the
>>>>> actuator, destroying your watch and possibly breaking your wrist.
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can imagine. I salvage the neodymium magnets from dead hard
>>>> drives. If
>>>> you want to stick something to your fridge, they will do the job really
>>>> well :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Be sure to leave the metal plating on the magnet, because the magnet
>>> itself rusts fairly quickly.
>>>
>>
>> NI never considered that but yes, I use them as they come out of the
>> hard drive.
>
> I've a bunch of magnets that I bought for cents from a street stall in
> Apiliu street in Hong Kong. The bigger ones, about 4cm diameter helped
> recover some large nuts that had fallen inside an aircraft wing. We just
> ran the magnets over the outside of the aluminium and dragged the nuts
> to a place where they could be recovered. The small ones about 1cm
> diameter will hold any thin non-ferrous object to a steel surface, they
> hold small tools to the wall of my shed.
>
> BTW, if you ever go to Hong Kong, Apiliu Street is a must to visit,
> hundreds of street stalls and shops selling everything electronic and
> electrical.

I have just had a look on Street View, wow.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#59436

On Wednesday, 5 Apr 2017 4:05 PM, Clocky wrote:
> On 5/04/2017 12:26 PM, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 4/5/2017 10:07 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 5/04/2017 5:44 AM, Peter Jason wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=548>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   And yup, I (mostly software) supported all that stuff as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] If you opened one of these babies, you *had* to take your watch
>>>>>> off,
>>>>>> because if you didn't, your wrist would be jammed to the magnets of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> actuator, destroying your watch and possibly breaking your wrist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can imagine. I salvage the neodymium magnets from dead hard
>>>>> drives. If
>>>>> you want to stick something to your fridge, they will do the job 
>>>>> really
>>>>> well :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Be sure to leave the metal plating on the magnet, because the magnet
>>>> itself rusts fairly quickly.
>>>>
>>>
>>> NI never considered that but yes, I use them as they come out of the
>>> hard drive.
>>
>> I've a bunch of magnets that I bought for cents from a street stall in
>> Apiliu street in Hong Kong. The bigger ones, about 4cm diameter helped
>> recover some large nuts that had fallen inside an aircraft wing. We just
>> ran the magnets over the outside of the aluminium and dragged the nuts
>> to a place where they could be recovered. The small ones about 1cm
>> diameter will hold any thin non-ferrous object to a steel surface, they
>> hold small tools to the wall of my shed.
>>
>> BTW, if you ever go to Hong Kong, Apiliu Street is a must to visit,
>> hundreds of street stalls and shops selling everything electronic and
>> electrical.
>
> I have just had a look on Street View, wow.
>
>

you piqued my interest so I had a look too. :) not that I will ever go there


-- 
"Multiculturanism equals white ethnocide"
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org

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#59440

On 4/5/2017 7:34 PM, felix wrote:
> On Wednesday, 5 Apr 2017 4:05 PM, Clocky wrote:
>> On 5/04/2017 12:26 PM, keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2017 10:07 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>>> On 5/04/2017 5:44 AM, Peter Jason wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=548>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   And yup, I (mostly software) supported all that stuff as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] If you opened one of these babies, you *had* to take your watch
>>>>>>> off,
>>>>>>> because if you didn't, your wrist would be jammed to the magnets of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> actuator, destroying your watch and possibly breaking your wrist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can imagine. I salvage the neodymium magnets from dead hard
>>>>>> drives. If
>>>>>> you want to stick something to your fridge, they will do the job
>>>>>> really
>>>>>> well :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Be sure to leave the metal plating on the magnet, because the magnet
>>>>> itself rusts fairly quickly.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> NI never considered that but yes, I use them as they come out of the
>>>> hard drive.
>>>
>>> I've a bunch of magnets that I bought for cents from a street stall in
>>> Apiliu street in Hong Kong. The bigger ones, about 4cm diameter helped
>>> recover some large nuts that had fallen inside an aircraft wing. We just
>>> ran the magnets over the outside of the aluminium and dragged the nuts
>>> to a place where they could be recovered. The small ones about 1cm
>>> diameter will hold any thin non-ferrous object to a steel surface, they
>>> hold small tools to the wall of my shed.
>>>
>>> BTW, if you ever go to Hong Kong, Apiliu Street is a must to visit,
>>> hundreds of street stalls and shops selling everything electronic and
>>> electrical.
>>
>> I have just had a look on Street View, wow.
>>
>>
>
> you piqued my interest so I had a look too. :) not that I will ever go
> there
>
>
Not expensive to go there these days, I love the place, and will go 
there again

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#59439

On 4/5/2017 4:05 PM, Clocky wrote:
> On 5/04/2017 12:26 PM, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 4/5/2017 10:07 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 5/04/2017 5:44 AM, Peter Jason wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=548>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   And yup, I (mostly software) supported all that stuff as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] If you opened one of these babies, you *had* to take your watch
>>>>>> off,
>>>>>> because if you didn't, your wrist would be jammed to the magnets of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> actuator, destroying your watch and possibly breaking your wrist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can imagine. I salvage the neodymium magnets from dead hard
>>>>> drives. If
>>>>> you want to stick something to your fridge, they will do the job
>>>>> really
>>>>> well :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Be sure to leave the metal plating on the magnet, because the magnet
>>>> itself rusts fairly quickly.
>>>>
>>>
>>> NI never considered that but yes, I use them as they come out of the
>>> hard drive.
>>
>> I've a bunch of magnets that I bought for cents from a street stall in
>> Apiliu street in Hong Kong. The bigger ones, about 4cm diameter helped
>> recover some large nuts that had fallen inside an aircraft wing. We just
>> ran the magnets over the outside of the aluminium and dragged the nuts
>> to a place where they could be recovered. The small ones about 1cm
>> diameter will hold any thin non-ferrous object to a steel surface, they
>> hold small tools to the wall of my shed.
>>
>> BTW, if you ever go to Hong Kong, Apiliu Street is a must to visit,
>> hundreds of street stalls and shops selling everything electronic and
>> electrical.
>
> I have just had a look on Street View, wow.

On one occasion, I saw a guy on a street stall changing chips in a 
mobile phone while the guy on the next stall selling second hand tools 
was sharpening screwdrivers with an angle grinder. I was shown a laser 
pointer powerful enough to burn plywood there but customs would have 
been a problem.

Around the corner is the Golden computer Centre, another totally mad 
place. In the old days (the 1990s) they sold pirate software at HKD5 
(less than AUD1.00) per floppy. They don't do that any more but it is 
still an amazing place to wander round.

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