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Re: OT Thunderbird

Started byfelix <me@nothere.invalid>
First post2016-10-27 16:13 +1100
Last post2016-10-30 09:09 +0800
Articles 20 on this page of 62 — 9 participants

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  Re: OT Thunderbird felix <me@nothere.invalid> - 2016-10-27 16:13 +1100
    Re: OT Thunderbird Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> - 2016-10-27 17:24 +1100
      Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-10-27 16:14 +0800
        Re: OT Thunderbird Petzl <petzlx@gmail.com> - 2016-10-28 07:57 +1100
          Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-10-28 13:23 +0800
            Re: OT Thunderbird not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2016-10-29 01:25 +0000
              Re: OT Thunderbird Noddy <me@wardengineering.com> - 2016-10-29 12:43 +1100
                Re: OT Thunderbird Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> - 2016-10-29 13:58 +1100
              Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-10-30 07:31 +0800
                Re: OT Thunderbird not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2016-10-30 00:01 +0000
                  Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-10-30 09:07 +0800
                    Re: OT Thunderbird not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2016-10-30 21:53 +0000
                      Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-10-31 08:51 +0800
                        Re: OT Thunderbird Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> - 2016-10-31 15:38 +1100
                          Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-10-31 19:32 +0800
                            Re: OT Thunderbird Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> - 2016-11-01 14:07 +1100
                              Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-11-01 13:54 +0800
                                Re: OT Thunderbird keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2016-11-01 17:52 +1000
                                  Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-11-01 19:30 +0800
                                    Re: OT Thunderbird keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2016-11-01 22:26 +1000
                                      Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-11-02 06:57 +0800
                                        Re: OT Thunderbird keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2016-11-02 15:38 +1000
                                          Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-11-02 20:03 +0800
                                    Re: OT Thunderbird Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> - 2016-11-02 00:39 +1100
                                Re: OT Thunderbird Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> - 2016-11-02 00:33 +1100
                          Re: OT Thunderbird not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2016-11-03 21:25 +0000
                            Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-11-04 13:52 +0800
                              Re: OT Thunderbird Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2016-11-04 07:46 +0000
                      Re: OT Thunderbird keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2016-10-31 16:27 +1000
                        Re: OT Thunderbird not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2016-11-03 21:11 +0000
                          Re: OT Thunderbird keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2016-11-04 13:31 +1000
                            Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-11-04 13:56 +0800
                              Re: OT Thunderbird keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2016-11-04 19:28 +1000
                                Re: OT Thunderbird not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2016-11-04 22:59 +0000
                                  Re: OT Thunderbird keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2016-11-06 20:24 +1000
                                    Re: OT Thunderbird not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2016-11-06 21:51 +0000
                                      Re: OT Thunderbird keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2016-11-07 19:33 +1000
                                        Re: OT Thunderbird not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2016-11-07 21:28 +0000
                                Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-11-06 22:27 +0800
                                  Re: OT Thunderbird keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2016-11-07 19:29 +1000
            Re: OT Thunderbird felix <me@nothere.invalid> - 2016-10-29 14:09 +1100
              Re: OT Thunderbird Noddy <me@wardengineering.com> - 2016-10-29 16:33 +1100
                Re: OT Thunderbird Jeßus <j@j.net> - 2016-10-29 17:15 +1100
                  Re: OT Thunderbird Noddy <me@wardengineering.com> - 2016-10-29 18:19 +1100
                    Re: OT Thunderbird Jeßus <j@j.net> - 2016-10-29 18:55 +1100
                      Re: OT Thunderbird Noddy <me@wardengineering.com> - 2016-10-29 23:52 +1100
                        Re: OT Thunderbird Jeßus <j@j.net> - 2016-10-30 09:07 +1100
                  Re: OT Thunderbird Petzl <petzlx@gmail.com> - 2016-10-30 07:19 +1100
                    Re: OT Thunderbird Jeßus <j@j.net> - 2016-10-30 07:44 +1100
                      Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-10-30 07:36 +0800
                        Re: OT Thunderbird Jeßus <j@j.net> - 2016-10-30 11:29 +1100
                          Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-10-30 13:21 +0800
              Re: OT Thunderbird Petzl <petzlx@gmail.com> - 2016-10-30 07:18 +1100
                Re: OT Thunderbird Jeßus <j@j.net> - 2016-10-30 07:45 +1100
                  Re: OT Thunderbird not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2016-10-29 23:37 +0000
                    Re: OT Thunderbird Jeßus <j@j.net> - 2016-10-30 11:32 +1100
                      Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-11-01 10:18 +0800
                Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-10-30 07:47 +0800
                Re: OT Thunderbird felix <me@nothere.invalid> - 2016-10-30 10:56 +1100
                  Re: OT Thunderbird Petzl <petzlx@gmail.com> - 2016-10-30 11:32 +1100
                    Re: OT Thunderbird Petzl <petzlx@gmail.com> - 2016-10-30 11:40 +1100
                  Re: OT Thunderbird Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2016-10-30 09:09 +0800

Page 2 of 4 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4  Next page →


#55864

FromClocky <notgonn@happen.com>
Date2016-11-02 06:57 +0800
Message-ID<58191dd9$0$1531$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#55861
On 1/11/2016 8:26 PM, keithr0 wrote:
> On 11/1/2016 9:30 PM, Clocky wrote:
>> On 1/11/2016 3:52 PM, keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 11/1/2016 3:54 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>>> On 1/11/2016 11:07 AM, Xeno wrote:
>>>>> On 31/10/2016 10:32 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>> On 31/10/2016 12:38 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>>>>>> On 31/10/2016 11:51 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 31/10/2016 5:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In aus.computers Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 30/10/2016 8:01 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In aus.cars Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turned off Firefox after repeated updates didn't fix
>>>>>>>>>>>> stability and
>>>>>>>>>>>> speed issues. I tried Chrome and was blown away by the
>>>>>>>>>>>> speed, in
>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison so have used it since, occasionally trying latest
>>>>>>>>>>>> versions of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Firefox and Opera but still not liking them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I use Dillo a lot, but I don't expect many people to join me in
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> camp
>>>>>>>>>>> (Windows versions can be a little buggy too). It's pretty much a
>>>>>>>>>>> protest
>>>>>>>>>>> vote against the web that simply doesn't support scripts in the
>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>> place. It runs well on the Pentium I I'm on now.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'll have a look at Dillo, I was unaware of it. Pentium 1 btw...
>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>> keeping it real ;-)
>>>>>>>>>> Once upon a long ago I set up an A500 hacked with a 40Mhz MC68000
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> 8mb RAM running Voyager and IBrowse over an SLIP connection...
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>> I would have the willpower and stamina to do that today ;-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web
>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>> WiFi
>>>>>>>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS
>>>>>>>>> meant
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hah, beat me by 33Mhz! Yeah, it was hopeless.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did you mean 13MHz?    ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can envisage a 0MHz computer as being hopeless however.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  One of these days I
>>>>>>>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let me know when you are done :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even better, if you really want the *thrill* of running a C64, you
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> get emulators that will run on your PC or most of the mainstream OSs
>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Win)Vice is the one to look for and not just for the C64 but quite a
>>>>>> number of C= systems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might have more success using this C64 OS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Contiki
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Old news to both of us I should imagine ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>> (Relatively) new to me. Never been a C64 fan, you see. A few mates had
>>>>> them back in the days and I had one very briefly too. It didn't fit
>>>>> the
>>>>> task required of it so I was forced, because of educational needs, to
>>>>> get an Apple II, IIc actually, and that did the job but I didn't go
>>>>> much
>>>>> on that either. Didn't go much on Apples at all until the iMac in the
>>>>> early 2,000s. I knew of the emulators and other alternatives because a
>>>>> mate was really into them. But then, he was a real geeky
>>>>> programmer, to
>>>>> be expected really.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might even be able to access usenet using a command line
>>>>>>> alternative, same as when I first accessed Usenet though, for the
>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>> of me, I cannot see why anyone would bother.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, through a shell account and I think there is a BBS that offers a
>>>>>> access to Usenet and IRC using a C64.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why would you want to? Because you can!
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not what I would consider a 'challenge'.
>>>>
>>>> Using an iPhone isn't a challenge and neither is copying and pasting
>>>> some code and programming it into an Arduino.
>>>>
>>>> Working with vintage hardware is often much more of a challenge exactly
>>>> because of the limitations of the hardware.
>>>
>>> More likely limitations of the software, compilers and assemblers in
>>> those days knew nothing about networking,
>>
>> That has been addresses using modern tools and using development
>> platforms that don't run on the actual hardware. Back in the day you
>> were often limited to what you could run on the actual hardware.
>>
>>  adding the hardware isn't
>>> exactly challenging.
>>>
>>
>> It's more challenging than plugging in a module and copying and pasting
>> a bit of code.
>
> Its as challenging as you make it. Only amateurs value challenges in
> themselves though, professionals will take whatever will make the job
> better and easier even if that means plugging in ready made modules,
> time is money.
>

I have only considered Arduino and vintage equipment development at a 
hobbyist level. Sure, professional development would look for the what's 
fastest and easiest.

>>
>>> As hardware goes, using small low powered computers such as the Arduino
>>> or the ESP8266 are more limited in terms of hardware, especially memory.
>>
>> OTOH the programming environments and compilers are much easier to work
>> with and the processors are much faster and incorporate much more
>> functionality into a single chip.
>
> It all depends what you use, some of the newer IDEs and languages enable
> you to make products previously impossible, but languages like C and C++
> haven't changes at the basic level.
>

There were no C or C++ compilers for some of the vintage stuff and you 
had to bang the hardware directly using ASM for the most part (given the 
limitations of BASIC in terms of speed) though there are now emulators, 
compilers and cross-compilers (like z88dk) that can run on relatively 
modern hardware and make things easier to port.

> I've been programming for the last 47 years, in all sorts of languages
> and all sorts of environments, things are more convenient now than when
> I had to work from paper tape, but the challenges remain the same
> especially if you aspire to make something more than trivial tasks.
>


 From a programmers perspective I guess writing the TV-out library for 
the Arduino was the challenge. I wouldn't know where to start.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of how easy it was connecting 
couple of resistors, a Dallas 18B20 and cobbling together a bit of code 
to display temperature along with a rotating box on a TV screen and 
comparing it to the challenge of building a working Z80 homebrew 
computer with video output out of junk box components which is something 
I did for fun a couple of years ago.

Hobbyist level stuff.

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#55865

Fromkeithr0 <user@account.invalid>
Date2016-11-02 15:38 +1000
Message-ID<e7tcetFk1opU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#55864
On 11/2/2016 8:57 AM, Clocky wrote:
> On 1/11/2016 8:26 PM, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 11/1/2016 9:30 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 1/11/2016 3:52 PM, keithr0 wrote:
>>>> On 11/1/2016 3:54 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>> On 1/11/2016 11:07 AM, Xeno wrote:
>>>>>> On 31/10/2016 10:32 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>>> On 31/10/2016 12:38 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 31/10/2016 11:51 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 31/10/2016 5:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In aus.computers Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 30/10/2016 8:01 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In aus.cars Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turned off Firefox after repeated updates didn't fix
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stability and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> speed issues. I tried Chrome and was blown away by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> speed, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison so have used it since, occasionally trying latest
>>>>>>>>>>>>> versions of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Firefox and Opera but still not liking them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I use Dillo a lot, but I don't expect many people to join me in
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> camp
>>>>>>>>>>>> (Windows versions can be a little buggy too). It's pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>> much a
>>>>>>>>>>>> protest
>>>>>>>>>>>> vote against the web that simply doesn't support scripts in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>> place. It runs well on the Pentium I I'm on now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'll have a look at Dillo, I was unaware of it. Pentium 1 btw...
>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>> keeping it real ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>> Once upon a long ago I set up an A500 hacked with a 40Mhz
>>>>>>>>>>> MC68000
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> 8mb RAM running Voyager and IBrowse over an SLIP connection...
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>>> I would have the willpower and stamina to do that today ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web
>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>> WiFi
>>>>>>>>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS
>>>>>>>>>> meant
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hah, beat me by 33Mhz! Yeah, it was hopeless.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Did you mean 13MHz?    ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can envisage a 0MHz computer as being hopeless however.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  One of these days I
>>>>>>>>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Let me know when you are done :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even better, if you really want the *thrill* of running a C64, you
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> get emulators that will run on your PC or most of the mainstream
>>>>>>>> OSs
>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Win)Vice is the one to look for and not just for the C64 but
>>>>>>> quite a
>>>>>>> number of C= systems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You might have more success using this C64 OS
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Contiki
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Old news to both of us I should imagine ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Relatively) new to me. Never been a C64 fan, you see. A few mates
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> them back in the days and I had one very briefly too. It didn't fit
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> task required of it so I was forced, because of educational needs, to
>>>>>> get an Apple II, IIc actually, and that did the job but I didn't go
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> on that either. Didn't go much on Apples at all until the iMac in the
>>>>>> early 2,000s. I knew of the emulators and other alternatives
>>>>>> because a
>>>>>> mate was really into them. But then, he was a real geeky
>>>>>> programmer, to
>>>>>> be expected really.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You might even be able to access usenet using a command line
>>>>>>>> alternative, same as when I first accessed Usenet though, for the
>>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>>> of me, I cannot see why anyone would bother.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, through a shell account and I think there is a BBS that
>>>>>>> offers a
>>>>>>> access to Usenet and IRC using a C64.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would you want to? Because you can!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not what I would consider a 'challenge'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Using an iPhone isn't a challenge and neither is copying and pasting
>>>>> some code and programming it into an Arduino.
>>>>>
>>>>> Working with vintage hardware is often much more of a challenge
>>>>> exactly
>>>>> because of the limitations of the hardware.
>>>>
>>>> More likely limitations of the software, compilers and assemblers in
>>>> those days knew nothing about networking,
>>>
>>> That has been addresses using modern tools and using development
>>> platforms that don't run on the actual hardware. Back in the day you
>>> were often limited to what you could run on the actual hardware.
>>>
>>>  adding the hardware isn't
>>>> exactly challenging.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's more challenging than plugging in a module and copying and pasting
>>> a bit of code.
>>
>> Its as challenging as you make it. Only amateurs value challenges in
>> themselves though, professionals will take whatever will make the job
>> better and easier even if that means plugging in ready made modules,
>> time is money.
>>
>
> I have only considered Arduino and vintage equipment development at a
> hobbyist level. Sure, professional development would look for the what's
> fastest and easiest.
>
>>>
>>>> As hardware goes, using small low powered computers such as the Arduino
>>>> or the ESP8266 are more limited in terms of hardware, especially
>>>> memory.
>>>
>>> OTOH the programming environments and compilers are much easier to work
>>> with and the processors are much faster and incorporate much more
>>> functionality into a single chip.
>>
>> It all depends what you use, some of the newer IDEs and languages enable
>> you to make products previously impossible, but languages like C and C++
>> haven't changes at the basic level.
>>
>
> There were no C or C++ compilers for some of the vintage stuff and you
> had to bang the hardware directly using ASM for the most part (given the
> limitations of BASIC in terms of speed) though there are now emulators,
> compilers and cross-compilers (like z88dk) that can run on relatively
> modern hardware and make things easier to port.

I once wrote a simple database in machine language for a 1950s computer 
that lacked even an assembler. I wrote some stuff in assembler for my 
Atari machine, my 1984 Fujitsu Micro 8 had assemblers in native mode, 
and a c compiler in cp/m mode, I taught myself C on that machine. the 
biggest problem was that all the information about it was in Japanese.

>> I've been programming for the last 47 years, in all sorts of languages
>> and all sorts of environments, things are more convenient now than when
>> I had to work from paper tape, but the challenges remain the same
>> especially if you aspire to make something more than trivial tasks.
>>
>
>
> From a programmers perspective I guess writing the TV-out library for
> the Arduino was the challenge. I wouldn't know where to start.
>
> I'm looking at it from the perspective of how easy it was connecting
> couple of resistors, a Dallas 18B20 and cobbling together a bit of code
> to display temperature along with a rotating box on a TV screen and
> comparing it to the challenge of building a working Z80 homebrew
> computer with video output out of junk box components which is something
> I did for fun a couple of years ago.

Not much different, reading 18B20s is easy, putting stuff on a TV screen 
is hard especially if your TV doesn't have direct video input. I've done 
it the practical way, I've got 3 18B20s attached to my solar hot water 
feeding an ESP8266 which serves up a simple web page via Wifi that can 
be accessed by any computer in the house. That adds up to about 120 
lines of LUA code. Eventually one of my Raspberry Pis will  log the data 
every 5 minutes and serve up a nice web page with graphs and historical 
data. The Pi also has a cellular modem which it will use to text me if 
the tank temperature drops to the point that I need to turn the booster 
on. Thats a practical project.

I don't see the point of going over the past, the challenge is to learn 
the new stuff and use it do do things that you couldn't do before.

> Hobbyist level stuff.

Exactly, its a hobby for me now that I'm retired.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55866

FromClocky <notgonn@happen.com>
Date2016-11-02 20:03 +0800
Message-ID<5819d61b$0$1508$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#55865
On 2/11/2016 1:38 PM, keithr0 wrote:
> On 11/2/2016 8:57 AM, Clocky wrote:
>> On 1/11/2016 8:26 PM, keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 11/1/2016 9:30 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>>> On 1/11/2016 3:52 PM, keithr0 wrote:
>>>>> On 11/1/2016 3:54 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/11/2016 11:07 AM, Xeno wrote:
>>>>>>> On 31/10/2016 10:32 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 31/10/2016 12:38 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 31/10/2016 11:51 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 31/10/2016 5:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In aus.computers Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 30/10/2016 8:01 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In aus.cars Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turned off Firefox after repeated updates didn't fix
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stability and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speed issues. I tried Chrome and was blown away by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speed, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison so have used it since, occasionally trying latest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> versions of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Firefox and Opera but still not liking them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I use Dillo a lot, but I don't expect many people to join
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> camp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Windows versions can be a little buggy too). It's pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>> much a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> protest
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote against the web that simply doesn't support scripts in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>>> place. It runs well on the Pentium I I'm on now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll have a look at Dillo, I was unaware of it. Pentium 1
>>>>>>>>>>>> btw...
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping it real ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>> Once upon a long ago I set up an A500 hacked with a 40Mhz
>>>>>>>>>>>> MC68000
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> 8mb RAM running Voyager and IBrowse over an SLIP connection...
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>>>> I would have the willpower and stamina to do that today ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web
>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>> WiFi
>>>>>>>>>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS
>>>>>>>>>>> meant
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hah, beat me by 33Mhz! Yeah, it was hopeless.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Did you mean 13MHz?    ;-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can envisage a 0MHz computer as being hopeless however.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  One of these days I
>>>>>>>>>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Let me know when you are done :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even better, if you really want the *thrill* of running a C64, you
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> get emulators that will run on your PC or most of the mainstream
>>>>>>>>> OSs
>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (Win)Vice is the one to look for and not just for the C64 but
>>>>>>>> quite a
>>>>>>>> number of C= systems.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You might have more success using this C64 OS
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Contiki
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Old news to both of us I should imagine ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Relatively) new to me. Never been a C64 fan, you see. A few mates
>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>> them back in the days and I had one very briefly too. It didn't fit
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> task required of it so I was forced, because of educational
>>>>>>> needs, to
>>>>>>> get an Apple II, IIc actually, and that did the job but I didn't go
>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>> on that either. Didn't go much on Apples at all until the iMac in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> early 2,000s. I knew of the emulators and other alternatives
>>>>>>> because a
>>>>>>> mate was really into them. But then, he was a real geeky
>>>>>>> programmer, to
>>>>>>> be expected really.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You might even be able to access usenet using a command line
>>>>>>>>> alternative, same as when I first accessed Usenet though, for the
>>>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>>>> of me, I cannot see why anyone would bother.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, through a shell account and I think there is a BBS that
>>>>>>>> offers a
>>>>>>>> access to Usenet and IRC using a C64.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why would you want to? Because you can!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not what I would consider a 'challenge'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Using an iPhone isn't a challenge and neither is copying and pasting
>>>>>> some code and programming it into an Arduino.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Working with vintage hardware is often much more of a challenge
>>>>>> exactly
>>>>>> because of the limitations of the hardware.
>>>>>
>>>>> More likely limitations of the software, compilers and assemblers in
>>>>> those days knew nothing about networking,
>>>>
>>>> That has been addresses using modern tools and using development
>>>> platforms that don't run on the actual hardware. Back in the day you
>>>> were often limited to what you could run on the actual hardware.
>>>>
>>>>  adding the hardware isn't
>>>>> exactly challenging.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's more challenging than plugging in a module and copying and pasting
>>>> a bit of code.
>>>
>>> Its as challenging as you make it. Only amateurs value challenges in
>>> themselves though, professionals will take whatever will make the job
>>> better and easier even if that means plugging in ready made modules,
>>> time is money.
>>>
>>
>> I have only considered Arduino and vintage equipment development at a
>> hobbyist level. Sure, professional development would look for the what's
>> fastest and easiest.
>>
>>>>
>>>>> As hardware goes, using small low powered computers such as the
>>>>> Arduino
>>>>> or the ESP8266 are more limited in terms of hardware, especially
>>>>> memory.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH the programming environments and compilers are much easier to work
>>>> with and the processors are much faster and incorporate much more
>>>> functionality into a single chip.
>>>
>>> It all depends what you use, some of the newer IDEs and languages enable
>>> you to make products previously impossible, but languages like C and C++
>>> haven't changes at the basic level.
>>>
>>
>> There were no C or C++ compilers for some of the vintage stuff and you
>> had to bang the hardware directly using ASM for the most part (given the
>> limitations of BASIC in terms of speed) though there are now emulators,
>> compilers and cross-compilers (like z88dk) that can run on relatively
>> modern hardware and make things easier to port.
>
> I once wrote a simple database in machine language for a 1950s computer
> that lacked even an assembler. I wrote some stuff in assembler for my
> Atari machine, my 1984 Fujitsu Micro 8 had assemblers in native mode,
> and a c compiler in cp/m mode, I taught myself C on that machine. the
> biggest problem was that all the information about it was in Japanese.
>

Impressive stuff.

>>> I've been programming for the last 47 years, in all sorts of languages
>>> and all sorts of environments, things are more convenient now than when
>>> I had to work from paper tape, but the challenges remain the same
>>> especially if you aspire to make something more than trivial tasks.
>>>
>>
>>
>> From a programmers perspective I guess writing the TV-out library for
>> the Arduino was the challenge. I wouldn't know where to start.
>>
>> I'm looking at it from the perspective of how easy it was connecting
>> couple of resistors, a Dallas 18B20 and cobbling together a bit of code
>> to display temperature along with a rotating box on a TV screen and
>> comparing it to the challenge of building a working Z80 homebrew
>> computer with video output out of junk box components which is something
>> I did for fun a couple of years ago.
>
> Not much different, reading 18B20s is easy, putting stuff on a TV screen
> is hard especially if your TV doesn't have direct video input. I've done
> it the practical way, I've got 3 18B20s attached to my solar hot water
> feeding an ESP8266 which serves up a simple web page via Wifi that can
> be accessed by any computer in the house. That adds up to about 120
> lines of LUA code. Eventually one of my Raspberry Pis will  log the data
> every 5 minutes and serve up a nice web page with graphs and historical
> data. The Pi also has a cellular modem which it will use to text me if
> the tank temperature drops to the point that I need to turn the booster
> on. Thats a practical project.
>

That's a very cool practical project.

> I don't see the point of going over the past, the challenge is to learn
> the new stuff and use it do do things that you couldn't do before.
>

That's why I have a Nano and Arduino, but I still enjoy messing with 
vintage gear. It tends to fall over if you look at it the wrong way too, 
so keeping them all running is a challenge in itself.
Whatever floats your boat I guess.

>> Hobbyist level stuff.
>
> Exactly, its a hobby for me now that I'm retired.

I'm semi-retired but with two younger kids... you know how it goes.



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#55863

FromXeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>
Date2016-11-02 00:39 +1100
Message-ID<nva5ti$nm$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#55860
On 1/11/2016 10:30 PM, Clocky wrote:
> On 1/11/2016 3:52 PM, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 11/1/2016 3:54 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 1/11/2016 11:07 AM, Xeno wrote:
>>>> On 31/10/2016 10:32 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>> On 31/10/2016 12:38 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>>>>> On 31/10/2016 11:51 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>>> On 31/10/2016 5:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>>> In aus.computers Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 30/10/2016 8:01 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In aus.cars Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was turned off Firefox after repeated updates didn't fix
>>>>>>>>>>> stability and
>>>>>>>>>>> speed issues. I tried Chrome and was blown away by the speed, in
>>>>>>>>>>> comparison so have used it since, occasionally trying latest
>>>>>>>>>>> versions of
>>>>>>>>>>> Firefox and Opera but still not liking them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I use Dillo a lot, but I don't expect many people to join me in
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> camp
>>>>>>>>>> (Windows versions can be a little buggy too). It's pretty much a
>>>>>>>>>> protest
>>>>>>>>>> vote against the web that simply doesn't support scripts in the
>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>> place. It runs well on the Pentium I I'm on now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'll have a look at Dillo, I was unaware of it. Pentium 1 btw...
>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>> keeping it real ;-)
>>>>>>>>> Once upon a long ago I set up an A500 hacked with a 40Mhz MC68000
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> 8mb RAM running Voyager and IBrowse over an SLIP connection... not
>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>> I would have the willpower and stamina to do that today ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web
>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>> WiFi
>>>>>>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS meant
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hah, beat me by 33Mhz! Yeah, it was hopeless.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did you mean 13MHz?    ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can envisage a 0MHz computer as being hopeless however.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  One of these days I
>>>>>>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me know when you are done :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even better, if you really want the *thrill* of running a C64, you
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> get emulators that will run on your PC or most of the mainstream OSs
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (Win)Vice is the one to look for and not just for the C64 but quite a
>>>>> number of C= systems.
>>>>>
>>>>>> You might have more success using this C64 OS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Contiki
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Old news to both of us I should imagine ;-)
>>>>>
>>>> (Relatively) new to me. Never been a C64 fan, you see. A few mates had
>>>> them back in the days and I had one very briefly too. It didn't fit the
>>>> task required of it so I was forced, because of educational needs, to
>>>> get an Apple II, IIc actually, and that did the job but I didn't go
>>>> much
>>>> on that either. Didn't go much on Apples at all until the iMac in the
>>>> early 2,000s. I knew of the emulators and other alternatives because a
>>>> mate was really into them. But then, he was a real geeky programmer, to
>>>> be expected really.
>>>>>
>>>>>> You might even be able to access usenet using a command line
>>>>>> alternative, same as when I first accessed Usenet though, for the
>>>>>> life
>>>>>> of me, I cannot see why anyone would bother.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, through a shell account and I think there is a BBS that offers a
>>>>> access to Usenet and IRC using a C64.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would you want to? Because you can!
>>>>
>>>> It's not what I would consider a 'challenge'.
>>>
>>> Using an iPhone isn't a challenge and neither is copying and pasting
>>> some code and programming it into an Arduino.
>>>
>>> Working with vintage hardware is often much more of a challenge exactly
>>> because of the limitations of the hardware.
>>
>> More likely limitations of the software, compilers and assemblers in
>> those days knew nothing about networking,
>
> That has been addresses using modern tools and using development
> platforms that don't run on the actual hardware. Back in the day you
> were often limited to what you could run on the actual hardware.
>
>  adding the hardware isn't
>> exactly challenging.
>>
>
> It's more challenging than plugging in a module and copying and pasting
> a bit of code.

With the Arduino, there is no rule that says you must use someone elses' 
code. Besides, for some people, the challenge is to get the Arduino to 
interface with the real world and coding, however it is done, merely a 
means to that end. The coding itself may not be the 'challenge'.
>
>> As hardware goes, using small low powered computers such as the Arduino
>> or the ESP8266 are more limited in terms of hardware, especially memory.
>
> OTOH the programming environments and compilers are much easier to work
> with and the processors are much faster and incorporate much more
> functionality into a single chip.

And you can still program down the the chip level.


-- 

Xeno

First they ignore you,
Then they ridicule you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win.

Mahatma Ghandi

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55862

FromXeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>
Date2016-11-02 00:33 +1100
Message-ID<nva5jf$vdc$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#55858
On 1/11/2016 4:54 PM, Clocky wrote:
> On 1/11/2016 11:07 AM, Xeno wrote:
>> On 31/10/2016 10:32 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 31/10/2016 12:38 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>>> On 31/10/2016 11:51 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>> On 31/10/2016 5:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>> In aus.computers Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 30/10/2016 8:01 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>>> In aus.cars Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was turned off Firefox after repeated updates didn't fix
>>>>>>>>> stability and
>>>>>>>>> speed issues. I tried Chrome and was blown away by the speed, in
>>>>>>>>> comparison so have used it since, occasionally trying latest
>>>>>>>>> versions of
>>>>>>>>> Firefox and Opera but still not liking them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I use Dillo a lot, but I don't expect many people to join me in
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> camp
>>>>>>>> (Windows versions can be a little buggy too). It's pretty much a
>>>>>>>> protest
>>>>>>>> vote against the web that simply doesn't support scripts in the
>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>> place. It runs well on the Pentium I I'm on now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll have a look at Dillo, I was unaware of it. Pentium 1 btw...
>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>> keeping it real ;-)
>>>>>>> Once upon a long ago I set up an A500 hacked with a 40Mhz MC68000
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> 8mb RAM running Voyager and IBrowse over an SLIP connection... not
>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>> I would have the willpower and stamina to do that today ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web over
>>>>>> WiFi
>>>>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS meant
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hah, beat me by 33Mhz! Yeah, it was hopeless.
>>>>
>>>> Did you mean 13MHz?    ;-)
>>>>
>>>> I can envisage a 0MHz computer as being hopeless however.
>>>>>
>>>>>  One of these days I
>>>>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me know when you are done :-)
>>>>
>>>> Even better, if you really want the *thrill* of running a C64, you can
>>>> get emulators that will run on your PC or most of the mainstream OSs
>>>> out
>>>> there.
>>>>
>>>
>>> (Win)Vice is the one to look for and not just for the C64 but quite a
>>> number of C= systems.
>>>
>>>> You might have more success using this C64 OS
>>>>
>>>> https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Contiki
>>>>
>>>
>>> Old news to both of us I should imagine ;-)
>>>
>> (Relatively) new to me. Never been a C64 fan, you see. A few mates had
>> them back in the days and I had one very briefly too. It didn't fit the
>> task required of it so I was forced, because of educational needs, to
>> get an Apple II, IIc actually, and that did the job but I didn't go much
>> on that either. Didn't go much on Apples at all until the iMac in the
>> early 2,000s. I knew of the emulators and other alternatives because a
>> mate was really into them. But then, he was a real geeky programmer, to
>> be expected really.
>>>
>>>> You might even be able to access usenet using a command line
>>>> alternative, same as when I first accessed Usenet though, for the life
>>>> of me, I cannot see why anyone would bother.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, through a shell account and I think there is a BBS that offers a
>>> access to Usenet and IRC using a C64.
>>>
>>> Why would you want to? Because you can!
>>
>> It's not what I would consider a 'challenge'.
>
> Using an iPhone isn't a challenge

I never said it was. I use my phone as a tool, not a toy. For me, it's 
only a learning experience until I know what I want from it. After that, 
I let discovery learning take place naturally.

> and neither is copying and pasting
> some code and programming it into an Arduino.

Copying and pasting code is the learning process. Once the processes of 
programming have been learnt, then you can move on from there and create 
your own code to make your arduino do what you want from it with 
whatever bits you have attached to it.
>
> Working with vintage hardware is often much more of a challenge exactly
> because of the limitations of the hardware.

That's all very well but I was working with that very same vintage 
hardware, and its limitation, when it was very new. I was challenged and 
met those challenges at the appropriate time, when it was new and all of 
us were in discovery learning mode. That meant forays into hardware, 
programming, even networking. They were good times and I made lots of 
long term friends with whom I still communicate but the world moved on 
and I with it. I have now well and truly moved onto the WIMP interfaces 
and subsequently the tablet interfaces and still find sufficient 
challenges to keep me enthused. Every now and then I get hit with a wave 
of nostalgia. If I wait long enough, it will pass. ;-)
I sold or otherwise disposed of all my old hardware, not a great 
attachment to it. It served its purpose and needed to be moved aside for 
new developments - and there have been considerable. My geeky friend 
still has every computer he has ever owned, plus quite a few of my 
homebuilds. He never revisits his old computers, they lay in his spare 
room gathering dust and cobwebs (literally). He obviously feels some 
attachment to them  but they never get disturbed, even to clean under 
them. I did mention he was a geek, didn't I? The closest he gets to his 
old computers is through the use of their software on various emulators 
on whatever his current machine happens to be. But then, he's a 
programmer so that sates his nostalgia needs.

-- 

Xeno

First they ignore you,
Then they ridicule you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win.

Mahatma Ghandi

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55876

Fromnot@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev)
Date2016-11-03 21:25 +0000
Message-ID<nvg9vf$b6i$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#55852
Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> On 31/10/2016 11:51 AM, Clocky wrote:
>> On 31/10/2016 5:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>
>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web over WiFi
>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS meant that
>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it.
>>
>> Hah, beat me by 33Mhz! Yeah, it was hopeless.
> 
> Did you mean 13MHz?    ;-)
> 
> I can envisage a 0MHz computer as being hopeless however.

Analogue computers have done good work. I'm on-off working
on a combined analogue-digital clock design that ticks
randomly but always keeps perfect time. That's been done
with a microcontroller before too (though with a pseudo-random
sequence, definately cheating), but building it from the
bottom up using logic chips and op-amps is much more fun
and makes you think outside the box.

>>  One of these days I
>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>
>>
>> Let me know when you are done :-)
> 
> Even better, if you really want the *thrill* of running a C64, you can 
> get emulators that will run on your PC or most of the mainstream OSs out 
> there.
> 
> You might have more success using this C64 OS
> 
> https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Contiki
> 
> You might even be able to access usenet using a command line 
> alternative, same as when I first accessed Usenet though, for the life 
> of me, I cannot see why anyone would bother.

I've run Contiki and accessed the web using one of my many real
C64s. My hope with the newsreader will be to make it a bit more
useable than browsing the web is with the Contiki
browser, but I'm yet to sit down and work out exactly what's
possible yet (it will probably be a few years until I do, if I
do). Emulators will no-doubt come in handy.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#55880

FromClocky <notgonn@happen.com>
Date2016-11-04 13:52 +0800
Message-ID<581c222c$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#55876
On 4/11/2016 5:25 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> On 31/10/2016 11:51 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 31/10/2016 5:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web over WiFi
>>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS meant that
>>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it.
>>>
>>> Hah, beat me by 33Mhz! Yeah, it was hopeless.
>>
>> Did you mean 13MHz?    ;-)
>>
>> I can envisage a 0MHz computer as being hopeless however.
>
> Analogue computers have done good work. I'm on-off working
> on a combined analogue-digital clock design that ticks
> randomly but always keeps perfect time. That's been done
> with a microcontroller before too (though with a pseudo-random
> sequence, definately cheating), but building it from the
> bottom up using logic chips and op-amps is much more fun
> and makes you think outside the box.
>
>>>  One of these days I
>>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Let me know when you are done :-)
>>
>> Even better, if you really want the *thrill* of running a C64, you can
>> get emulators that will run on your PC or most of the mainstream OSs out
>> there.
>>
>> You might have more success using this C64 OS
>>
>> https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Contiki
>>
>> You might even be able to access usenet using a command line
>> alternative, same as when I first accessed Usenet though, for the life
>> of me, I cannot see why anyone would bother.
>
> I've run Contiki and accessed the web using one of my many real
> C64s. My hope with the newsreader will be to make it a bit more
> useable than browsing the web is with the Contiki
> browser, but I'm yet to sit down and work out exactly what's
> possible yet (it will probably be a few years until I do, if I
> do). Emulators will no-doubt come in handy.
>


There was (is) a C64 graphical browser called "the Wave". Never tried it 
and probably not updated in years. I think it was Cameron Kaisers project.

Have you tried it?


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#55882

FromComputer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid>
Date2016-11-04 07:46 +0000
Message-ID<nvhecq$1mmm$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#55880
Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> On 4/11/2016 5:25 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>> You might have more success using this C64 OS
>>>
>>> https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Contiki
>>>
>>> You might even be able to access usenet using a command line
>>> alternative, same as when I first accessed Usenet though, for the life
>>> of me, I cannot see why anyone would bother.
>>
>> I've run Contiki and accessed the web using one of my many real
>> C64s. My hope with the newsreader will be to make it a bit more
>> useable than browsing the web is with the Contiki
>> browser, but I'm yet to sit down and work out exactly what's
>> possible yet (it will probably be a few years until I do, if I
>> do). Emulators will no-doubt come in handy.
>>
> There was (is) a C64 graphical browser called "the Wave". Never tried it 
> and probably not updated in years. I think it was Cameron Kaisers project.

This seems to be what your thinking of:
http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/hl/
"HyperLink" is the name there. It seems it can do images to an extent.

> Have you tried it?

I've got one of the C64NIC cartridges from Jim Brain / Retro
Innovations:
http://store.go4retro.com/nic/
(Ironically, Firefox just crashed loading the
web page for it (this is FireFox V.2, so don't judge it on
that, and yes I have my reasons for using that old version)).
HyperLink isn't designed for them so I never gave it a go,
but sometime I might have a try at setting it up with the Unix
null modem set-up described, now that you've reminded me of it.

Actually, looking at the documentation, it seems that it uses
a Unix program to preprocess the HTML and images for the C64.

There's also Singular Browser (which I don't think I got working,
but I can't remember now:
http://home.sch.bme.hu/~soci64/browser/
It doesn't do images, as far as I know.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#55853

Fromkeithr0 <user@account.invalid>
Date2016-10-31 16:27 +1000
Message-ID<e7o6ifFck4oU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#55848
On 10/31/2016 7:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> In aus.computers Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>> On 30/10/2016 8:01 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> In aus.cars Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I was turned off Firefox after repeated updates didn't fix stability and
>>>> speed issues. I tried Chrome and was blown away by the speed, in
>>>> comparison so have used it since, occasionally trying latest versions of
>>>> Firefox and Opera but still not liking them.
>>>
>>> I use Dillo a lot, but I don't expect many people to join me in that camp
>>> (Windows versions can be a little buggy too). It's pretty much a protest
>>> vote against the web that simply doesn't support scripts in the first
>>> place. It runs well on the Pentium I I'm on now.
>>>
>>
>> I'll have a look at Dillo, I was unaware of it. Pentium 1 btw...  that's
>> keeping it real ;-)
>> Once upon a long ago I set up an A500 hacked with a 40Mhz MC68000 and
>> 8mb RAM running Voyager and IBrowse over an SLIP connection... not sure
>> I would have the willpower and stamina to do that today ;-)
>
> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web over WiFi
> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS meant that
> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it. One of these days I
> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>
I think that it has been done before, God knows why though.

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#55875

Fromnot@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev)
Date2016-11-03 21:11 +0000
Message-ID<nvg95t$9op$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#55853
In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
> On 10/31/2016 7:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>
>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web over WiFi
>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS meant that
>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it. One of these days I
>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>
> I think that it has been done before,

Closest I know about is some Email software that sort-of supported
Usenet. There's the option of simply connecting to a PC as a terminal,
but that doesn't count in my book.

> God knows why though.

The challenge! Besides some of us like disappearing down a rabbit
hole to live in the past. The present keeps annoying me too much
anyway.

Plus if I put the software on a cartridge I'll get near instant
booting, so that's better than any PC and its associated OS. The
complex use of a floppy disk to temporarily store the groups
header files will probably slow it down terribly after that,
but my power-on to groups list time will be the best on the
block. That I can guarantee.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#55879

Fromkeithr0 <user@account.invalid>
Date2016-11-04 13:31 +1000
Message-ID<e82doaFqh8pU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#55875
On 11/4/2016 7:11 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
>> On 10/31/2016 7:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>
>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web over WiFi
>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS meant that
>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it. One of these days I
>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>
>> I think that it has been done before,
>
> Closest I know about is some Email software that sort-of supported
> Usenet. There's the option of simply connecting to a PC as a terminal,
> but that doesn't count in my book.
>
>> God knows why though.
>
> The challenge! Besides some of us like disappearing down a rabbit
> hole to live in the past. The present keeps annoying me too much
> anyway.
>
> Plus if I put the software on a cartridge I'll get near instant
> booting, so that's better than any PC and its associated OS. The
> complex use of a floppy disk to temporarily store the groups
> header files will probably slow it down terribly after that,
> but my power-on to groups list time will be the best on the
> block. That I can guarantee.
>
There are plenty of challenges to be had with modern systems that 
actually advance things rather than just raking over the past. I've seen 
the huge advances over the 47 years that I've been involved with 
computers, I've had fun with them all but its always time to move on to 
the next one.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55881

FromClocky <notgonn@happen.com>
Date2016-11-04 13:56 +0800
Message-ID<581c231b$0$1499$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#55879
On 4/11/2016 11:31 AM, keithr0 wrote:
> On 11/4/2016 7:11 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 10/31/2016 7:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web over
>>>> WiFi
>>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS meant
>>>> that
>>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it. One of these days I
>>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>>
>>> I think that it has been done before,
>>
>> Closest I know about is some Email software that sort-of supported
>> Usenet. There's the option of simply connecting to a PC as a terminal,
>> but that doesn't count in my book.
>>
>>> God knows why though.
>>
>> The challenge! Besides some of us like disappearing down a rabbit
>> hole to live in the past. The present keeps annoying me too much
>> anyway.
>>
>> Plus if I put the software on a cartridge I'll get near instant
>> booting, so that's better than any PC and its associated OS. The
>> complex use of a floppy disk to temporarily store the groups
>> header files will probably slow it down terribly after that,
>> but my power-on to groups list time will be the best on the
>> block. That I can guarantee.
>>
> There are plenty of challenges to be had with modern systems that
> actually advance things rather than just raking over the past. I've seen
> the huge advances over the 47 years that I've been involved with
> computers, I've had fun with them all but its always time to move on to
> the next one.


It's whatever floats your boat though. I personally like vintage and new 
hardware alike, they need not be mutually exclusive interests.



[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55883

Fromkeithr0 <user@account.invalid>
Date2016-11-04 19:28 +1000
Message-ID<e832mjFgtgU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#55881
On 11/4/2016 3:56 PM, Clocky wrote:
> On 4/11/2016 11:31 AM, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 11/4/2016 7:11 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 10/31/2016 7:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web over
>>>>> WiFi
>>>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS meant
>>>>> that
>>>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it. One of these days I
>>>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>>>
>>>> I think that it has been done before,
>>>
>>> Closest I know about is some Email software that sort-of supported
>>> Usenet. There's the option of simply connecting to a PC as a terminal,
>>> but that doesn't count in my book.
>>>
>>>> God knows why though.
>>>
>>> The challenge! Besides some of us like disappearing down a rabbit
>>> hole to live in the past. The present keeps annoying me too much
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Plus if I put the software on a cartridge I'll get near instant
>>> booting, so that's better than any PC and its associated OS. The
>>> complex use of a floppy disk to temporarily store the groups
>>> header files will probably slow it down terribly after that,
>>> but my power-on to groups list time will be the best on the
>>> block. That I can guarantee.
>>>
>> There are plenty of challenges to be had with modern systems that
>> actually advance things rather than just raking over the past. I've seen
>> the huge advances over the 47 years that I've been involved with
>> computers, I've had fun with them all but its always time to move on to
>> the next one.
>
>
> It's whatever floats your boat though. I personally like vintage and new
> hardware alike, they need not be mutually exclusive interests.
>
I like vintage machinery, thats why I play with old aircraft, but old 
computers seem rather pointless to me.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55884

Fromnot@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev)
Date2016-11-04 22:59 +0000
Message-ID<nvj3t5$165q$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#55883
In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/4/2016 3:56 PM, Clocky wrote:
>> On 4/11/2016 11:31 AM, keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 11/4/2016 7:11 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>> In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/31/2016 7:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web over
>>>>>> WiFi
>>>>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS meant
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it. One of these days I
>>>>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>> I think that it has been done before,
>>>>
>>>> Closest I know about is some Email software that sort-of supported
>>>> Usenet. There's the option of simply connecting to a PC as a terminal,
>>>> but that doesn't count in my book.
>>>>
>>>>> God knows why though.
>>>>
>>>> The challenge! Besides some of us like disappearing down a rabbit
>>>> hole to live in the past. The present keeps annoying me too much
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Plus if I put the software on a cartridge I'll get near instant
>>>> booting, so that's better than any PC and its associated OS. The
>>>> complex use of a floppy disk to temporarily store the groups
>>>> header files will probably slow it down terribly after that,
>>>> but my power-on to groups list time will be the best on the
>>>> block. That I can guarantee.
>>>>
>>> There are plenty of challenges to be had with modern systems that
>>> actually advance things rather than just raking over the past. I've seen
>>> the huge advances over the 47 years that I've been involved with
>>> computers, I've had fun with them all but its always time to move on to
>>> the next one.
>>
>> It's whatever floats your boat though. I personally like vintage and new
>> hardware alike, they need not be mutually exclusive interests.
>>
> I like vintage machinery, thats why I play with old aircraft, but old 
> computers seem rather pointless to me.

But I could say that you should stop messing with old aircraft and
spend your valuable time working out improvements to new designs,
to further the good of all humanity. (actually I've got things
to look into in that department myself too, but not with great
expectations)

The point is that sometimes people like myself enjoy working on
projects that don't have the pressures introduced by trying to
design something that serves the masses and competes with the
latest existing solutions (which in computing today will often
have been developed by numerous individuals, often with
financial support or incentive). There are examples of people
trying to do that with software, and few use their works anyway
because they simply can't independently develop them to the
standards of the "competition".

At least my newsreader (which in reality will probably never
be made) would be used by some people, who would enjoy the
expenience, and Perhaps, unlike if I'd tried to work with
all the technicalities of developing cutting-edge modern
software, I would have enjoyed myself too. 

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55887

Fromkeithr0 <user@account.invalid>
Date2016-11-06 20:24 +1000
Message-ID<e88embF93clU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#55884
On 11/5/2016 8:59 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
>> On 11/4/2016 3:56 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 4/11/2016 11:31 AM, keithr0 wrote:
>>>> On 11/4/2016 7:11 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>> In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/31/2016 7:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web over
>>>>>>> WiFi
>>>>>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS meant
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it. One of these days I
>>>>>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that it has been done before,
>>>>>
>>>>> Closest I know about is some Email software that sort-of supported
>>>>> Usenet. There's the option of simply connecting to a PC as a terminal,
>>>>> but that doesn't count in my book.
>>>>>
>>>>>> God knows why though.
>>>>>
>>>>> The challenge! Besides some of us like disappearing down a rabbit
>>>>> hole to live in the past. The present keeps annoying me too much
>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Plus if I put the software on a cartridge I'll get near instant
>>>>> booting, so that's better than any PC and its associated OS. The
>>>>> complex use of a floppy disk to temporarily store the groups
>>>>> header files will probably slow it down terribly after that,
>>>>> but my power-on to groups list time will be the best on the
>>>>> block. That I can guarantee.
>>>>>
>>>> There are plenty of challenges to be had with modern systems that
>>>> actually advance things rather than just raking over the past. I've seen
>>>> the huge advances over the 47 years that I've been involved with
>>>> computers, I've had fun with them all but its always time to move on to
>>>> the next one.
>>>
>>> It's whatever floats your boat though. I personally like vintage and new
>>> hardware alike, they need not be mutually exclusive interests.
>>>
>> I like vintage machinery, thats why I play with old aircraft, but old
>> computers seem rather pointless to me.
>
> But I could say that you should stop messing with old aircraft and
> spend your valuable time working out improvements to new designs,
> to further the good of all humanity. (actually I've got things
> to look into in that department myself too, but not with great
> expectations)

Were I qualified to do so and had the resources, I would do so. Since I 
I am not so qualified, and am deficient on the resource side I do the 
next best thing.

> The point is that sometimes people like myself enjoy working on
> projects that don't have the pressures introduced by trying to
> design something that serves the masses and competes with the
> latest existing solutions (which in computing today will often
> have been developed by numerous individuals, often with
> financial support or incentive). There are examples of people
> trying to do that with software, and few use their works anyway
> because they simply can't independently develop them to the
> standards of the "competition".

I used to write software in the commercial field, now I do it for my own 
pleasure, and utility, I may make it available for others if that seems 
appropriate.

> At least my newsreader (which in reality will probably never
> be made) would be used by some people, who would enjoy the
> expenience, and Perhaps, unlike if I'd tried to work with
> all the technicalities of developing cutting-edge modern
> software, I would have enjoyed myself too.

No more technicalities these days than in the past, in fact, in some 
ways, it is easier than it was, modern software has capabilities that 
the old stuff didn't.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55889

Fromnot@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev)
Date2016-11-06 21:51 +0000
Message-ID<nvo8kn$10cb$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#55887
In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/5/2016 8:59 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>> I like vintage machinery, thats why I play with old aircraft, but old
>>> computers seem rather pointless to me.
>>
>> But I could say that you should stop messing with old aircraft and
>> spend your valuable time working out improvements to new designs,
>> to further the good of all humanity. (actually I've got things
>> to look into in that department myself too, but not with great
>> expectations)
> 
> Were I qualified to do so and had the resources, I would do so. Since I 
> I am not so qualified, and am deficient on the resource side I do the 
> next best thing.
> 
>> The point is that sometimes people like myself enjoy working on
>> projects that don't have the pressures introduced by trying to
>> design something that serves the masses and competes with the
>> latest existing solutions (which in computing today will often
>> have been developed by numerous individuals, often with
>> financial support or incentive). There are examples of people
>> trying to do that with software, and few use their works anyway
>> because they simply can't independently develop them to the
>> standards of the "competition".
> 
> I used to write software in the commercial field, now I do it for my own 
> pleasure, and utility, I may make it available for others if that seems 
> appropriate.

So you're not writing it for the good of the general population
in the first place, you're writing it for your own purposes. You
might as well be developing it for a Commodore 64 if that was what
would give you most pleasure.

>> At least my newsreader (which in reality will probably never
>> be made) would be used by some people, who would enjoy the
>> expenience, and Perhaps, unlike if I'd tried to work with
>> all the technicalities of developing cutting-edge modern
>> software, I would have enjoyed myself too.
> 
> No more technicalities these days than in the past, in fact, in some 
> ways, it is easier than it was, modern software has capabilities that 
> the old stuff didn't.

But the level of overall complexity in commonly used software (which
one would be aiming to replace if one actually wanted to "advance
things") has also vastly increased. What I'm saying is that if you
actually wanted to make software that truely contributed to the
noticeable advancement of computing, or society, (I'm assuming
something like a new video compression system, new web browser,
new operating system) it would be outside the bounds of a normal
personal hobby project. You could try - but you wouldn't get it
up to the existing standards.

If you want to write software that's just useful, or enjoyable, for
you then no problem, and sure it's easier than it was. But you might
just as well be doing it for a Commodore 64, for all the good it might
do overall.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55892

Fromkeithr0 <user@account.invalid>
Date2016-11-07 19:33 +1000
Message-ID<e8b042FrojaU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#55889
On 11/7/2016 7:51 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
>> On 11/5/2016 8:59 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> I like vintage machinery, thats why I play with old aircraft, but old
>>>> computers seem rather pointless to me.
>>>
>>> But I could say that you should stop messing with old aircraft and
>>> spend your valuable time working out improvements to new designs,
>>> to further the good of all humanity. (actually I've got things
>>> to look into in that department myself too, but not with great
>>> expectations)
>>
>> Were I qualified to do so and had the resources, I would do so. Since I
>> I am not so qualified, and am deficient on the resource side I do the
>> next best thing.
>>
>>> The point is that sometimes people like myself enjoy working on
>>> projects that don't have the pressures introduced by trying to
>>> design something that serves the masses and competes with the
>>> latest existing solutions (which in computing today will often
>>> have been developed by numerous individuals, often with
>>> financial support or incentive). There are examples of people
>>> trying to do that with software, and few use their works anyway
>>> because they simply can't independently develop them to the
>>> standards of the "competition".
>>
>> I used to write software in the commercial field, now I do it for my own
>> pleasure, and utility, I may make it available for others if that seems
>> appropriate.
>
> So you're not writing it for the good of the general population
> in the first place, you're writing it for your own purposes. You
> might as well be developing it for a Commodore 64 if that was what
> would give you most pleasure.
>
>>> At least my newsreader (which in reality will probably never
>>> be made) would be used by some people, who would enjoy the
>>> expenience, and Perhaps, unlike if I'd tried to work with
>>> all the technicalities of developing cutting-edge modern
>>> software, I would have enjoyed myself too.
>>
>> No more technicalities these days than in the past, in fact, in some
>> ways, it is easier than it was, modern software has capabilities that
>> the old stuff didn't.
>
> But the level of overall complexity in commonly used software (which
> one would be aiming to replace if one actually wanted to "advance
> things") has also vastly increased. What I'm saying is that if you
> actually wanted to make software that truely contributed to the
> noticeable advancement of computing, or society, (I'm assuming
> something like a new video compression system, new web browser,
> new operating system) it would be outside the bounds of a normal
> personal hobby project. You could try - but you wouldn't get it
> up to the existing standards.
>
> If you want to write software that's just useful, or enjoyable, for
> you then no problem, and sure it's easier than it was. But you might
> just as well be doing it for a Commodore 64, for all the good it might
> do overall.

The Commodore 64 is a dead system, writing software for it is like 
writing a novel in latin.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55894

Fromnot@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev)
Date2016-11-07 21:28 +0000
Message-ID<nvqrla$1u9m$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#55892
In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/7/2016 7:51 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 11/5/2016 8:59 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>> In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> No more technicalities these days than in the past, in fact, in some
>>> ways, it is easier than it was, modern software has capabilities that
>>> the old stuff didn't.
>>
>> But the level of overall complexity in commonly used software (which
>> one would be aiming to replace if one actually wanted to "advance
>> things") has also vastly increased. What I'm saying is that if you
>> actually wanted to make software that truely contributed to the
>> noticeable advancement of computing, or society, (I'm assuming
>> something like a new video compression system, new web browser,
>> new operating system) it would be outside the bounds of a normal
>> personal hobby project. You could try - but you wouldn't get it
>> up to the existing standards.
>>
>> If you want to write software that's just useful, or enjoyable, for
>> you then no problem, and sure it's easier than it was. But you might
>> just as well be doing it for a Commodore 64, for all the good it might
>> do overall.
> 
> The Commodore 64 is a dead system, writing software for it is like 
> writing a novel in latin.

Yep, and nothing wrong with that if it's just a hobby project.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55888

FromClocky <notgonn@happen.com>
Date2016-11-06 22:27 +0800
Message-ID<581f3dd5$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#55883
On 4/11/2016 5:28 PM, keithr0 wrote:
> On 11/4/2016 3:56 PM, Clocky wrote:
>> On 4/11/2016 11:31 AM, keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 11/4/2016 7:11 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>> In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/31/2016 7:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web over
>>>>>> WiFi
>>>>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS meant
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it. One of these days I
>>>>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>> I think that it has been done before,
>>>>
>>>> Closest I know about is some Email software that sort-of supported
>>>> Usenet. There's the option of simply connecting to a PC as a terminal,
>>>> but that doesn't count in my book.
>>>>
>>>>> God knows why though.
>>>>
>>>> The challenge! Besides some of us like disappearing down a rabbit
>>>> hole to live in the past. The present keeps annoying me too much
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Plus if I put the software on a cartridge I'll get near instant
>>>> booting, so that's better than any PC and its associated OS. The
>>>> complex use of a floppy disk to temporarily store the groups
>>>> header files will probably slow it down terribly after that,
>>>> but my power-on to groups list time will be the best on the
>>>> block. That I can guarantee.
>>>>
>>> There are plenty of challenges to be had with modern systems that
>>> actually advance things rather than just raking over the past. I've seen
>>> the huge advances over the 47 years that I've been involved with
>>> computers, I've had fun with them all but its always time to move on to
>>> the next one.
>>
>>
>> It's whatever floats your boat though. I personally like vintage and new
>> hardware alike, they need not be mutually exclusive interests.
>>
> I like vintage machinery, thats why I play with old aircraft, but old
> computers seem rather pointless to me.
>


I could ask what the point is in playing with old aircraft and vintage 
machinery but I already know the answer, it's whatever blows your trumpet.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55891

Fromkeithr0 <user@account.invalid>
Date2016-11-07 19:29 +1000
Message-ID<e8avsnFrmnpU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#55888
On 11/7/2016 12:27 AM, Clocky wrote:
> On 4/11/2016 5:28 PM, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 11/4/2016 3:56 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 4/11/2016 11:31 AM, keithr0 wrote:
>>>> On 11/4/2016 7:11 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>> In aus.computers keithr0 <user@account.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/31/2016 7:53 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nice. I've had a 33MHz 486 laptop with 8MB RAM browsing the web over
>>>>>>> WiFi
>>>>>>> (text only though). The determination of sites to force HTTPS meant
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> it wasn't completely usable last time I tried it. One of these
>>>>>>> days I
>>>>>>> want to program a newsreader for the Commodore 64. :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that it has been done before,
>>>>>
>>>>> Closest I know about is some Email software that sort-of supported
>>>>> Usenet. There's the option of simply connecting to a PC as a terminal,
>>>>> but that doesn't count in my book.
>>>>>
>>>>>> God knows why though.
>>>>>
>>>>> The challenge! Besides some of us like disappearing down a rabbit
>>>>> hole to live in the past. The present keeps annoying me too much
>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Plus if I put the software on a cartridge I'll get near instant
>>>>> booting, so that's better than any PC and its associated OS. The
>>>>> complex use of a floppy disk to temporarily store the groups
>>>>> header files will probably slow it down terribly after that,
>>>>> but my power-on to groups list time will be the best on the
>>>>> block. That I can guarantee.
>>>>>
>>>> There are plenty of challenges to be had with modern systems that
>>>> actually advance things rather than just raking over the past. I've
>>>> seen
>>>> the huge advances over the 47 years that I've been involved with
>>>> computers, I've had fun with them all but its always time to move on to
>>>> the next one.
>>>
>>>
>>> It's whatever floats your boat though. I personally like vintage and new
>>> hardware alike, they need not be mutually exclusive interests.
>>>
>> I like vintage machinery, thats why I play with old aircraft, but old
>> computers seem rather pointless to me.
>>
>
>
> I could ask what the point is in playing with old aircraft and vintage
> machinery but I already know the answer, it's whatever blows your trumpet.

A well reserved old aircraft, or piece of machinery will bring pleasure 
to a lot more people than a Commodore 64 program no matter how clever.

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