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Re: z/PDOS-generic

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cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes:

> In article <87ikoh13fx.fsf@example.com>,
> Salvador Mirzo  <smirzo@example.com> wrote:
>>cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes:

[...]

>>It also seems very useful precisely to expose a programmer to the entire
>>machine.
>
> But this I'd push back on, at least until I understood the goal
> a bit better.  Is the intent to understand how systems work at a
> low level?  To understand systems architectural more generally?
> Or as a, "how did we get here?" exercise in systems evolution?

Heads up---this is a long sharing of personal interests, which might be
awfully uninteresting.

I seem to have a certain interest in how things work.  I never got into
hardware, though, even though my first computer book was a book called
Hardware---it helped me to put together my computer and made sense of
some BIOS options, but I can't quite remember anything else from it,
after all the years.

  Hardware (by Gabriel Torres, a Brazilian author)
  https://www.clubedohardware.com.br/livros/disponiveis/hardware-2%C2%AA-edi%C3%A7%C3%A3o-r33/

I was surprised to see the first edition being published in 2022.  (I
read the first edition most likely in 1994 or 1995, around those days.)

Although I know the POSIX API superficially well enough to write network
servers in C, say, I also did not get at all into the UNIX
kernel---always thought of doing, but never quite managed to.  So it
seems to me that that my curiosity doesn't get too low level.  The same
thing seems to happen on the network.  I've been fascinated by DNS, SMTP
et cetera and also IP, but then when I read TCP/IP Illustrated, for
example, I don't care too much about, say, Nagle's algorithm.  In other
words, there's a certain depth that my curiosity doesn't seem to care so
much about.

Nevertheless, I would certainly enjoy studying anything at all if
there's a certain context to do it.  It's too not clear what the context
is for each subject.  I've ignored hardware for most of my life and
focused on understanding how to use a system like a UNIX system.  Now I
think I ignored hardware too much.  Lately, I even started taking notes
on hardware.  (It's incredible how much acronyms you guys use, each one
abstracting some concept or some mechanism.)

> While understanding some bits of DOS, the BIOS, and the context
> around the late 70s/early 80s PC/home computer indistru is
> essential for the last, for first two, there are other, better
> ways to understand the machine than studying DOS and the BIOS.
> And in particular, modern systems, even those built around x86
> CPUs, bear little resemblence to the original IBM PC.
>
> Personally, I think one is better off coming at things from a
> fresher, more modern perspective, unencumbered by the follies of
> the past, as opposed to looking at things through the lens of
> 1979 Boca Raton.  To understand hardware at the most basic
> level, one would be better off looking at something like the
> Arduino platform, which is almost stupidly simple, but by
> design, very approachable.  To understand architecture at a more
> rational level, look at something like RISC-V; x86, and x86_64,
> carries too much baggage from the past that obfuscates
> understanding.  To understand OS design, or even firmware, there
> are better examples out there.  I'd look at something like MIT's
> materials for their OS course, in particular xv6.
>
> The negative case study aside, or spelunking into the history of
> the PC platform, I can't think of a good reason to study DOS.
> Historically important, yes; but otherwise an exemplar of how
> over-compensating for technical constraints can lead to bad
> technology.

Nice!  I happen to agree.  I did think at first that x86 should be the
choice and even started reading Randall Hyde while I still used Windows
daily---not anymore.  But I did come to the conclusion that it's too
complicated and something prettier should take its place.  Recently I
was reading about the 6502, but lately also concluded that a RISC-V
system could be the most educational to me.  Nevertheless, at least so
far this is not my main focus.  It's like I'm taking the topic like a
university course that's not main my area of study.  I'm interested in
it, but I have other duties to care for as well.

Some time ago, I gave the xv6 book first chapters a read and it turns
out they now do it on RISC-V, which reinforces the choice of
architecture.  I liked what they were doing.

I signed myself up to be reminded to buy 

  https://arace.tech/products/milk-v-jupiter-spacemit-m1-k1-octa-core-rva22-rvv1-0-risc-v-soc-2tops-miniitx

when it'd be available in stock again.  It did and I got the mail.  But
then I asked myself why did I do it---I have no use for a new computer;
I have no project.  I am not really a hardware person.  But there's no
question I like to know what you guys are talking about, say.  It's hard
for me to ignore things that are quite relevant to my
interests---whatever they might really be, they're definitely computer
oriented.

And let me stress that I think history is definitely important to me
because it seems to be a big part of what I consider understanding.  I
seem unable to feel that I understand something unless I understand the
historical evolution of how the thing came about.  But I am not a
historian for sure; after I get the overall description of the facts on
the time line, I usually move on.

For instance, now that I understand UNIX somewhat, I try to understand
what came before it---say MULTICS, ITS, TOPS-20, TENEX are names that I
believe were systems that started before UNIX.  But surely I don't
really want to write programs for MULTICS, say, even though it would be
a lot of fun for me to somehow emulate it and write notes on how it all
works, say.  I would never feel I understand a system unless I put my
hands on it.  (That's why I made the DOS comment about helping me put my
hands on a computer architecture [that it runs on].)

Here's an example.  Being very fond of UNIX, I became interested in Plan
9---at least to see what it's about.  At some point I found a book on
Plan 9 that's authored by Francisco Ballesteros.  I believe it's never
been published, but it's available as a PDF on his homepage.  Oh, here
it is:

   Introduction to Operating System Abstractions
   Using Plan 9 From Bell Labs
   Francisco J. Ballesteros
   https://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/9.intro.pdf

I read the book.  I wrote programs.  I did some exercises.  It gave me a
feeling that I have an introduction to Plan 9.  Would I like to go back
to it?  I would love to, but then there's a lot of other fun stuff.
Lately, I've been working on an idea in Common Lisp.  

I have a lot of fun writing Lisp.  My first exposure to Lisp was Racket,
which I now consider a big mistake.  I am so much more compatible to
Common Lisp than Racket.  (Macro writing is so much simpler in Common
Lisp than in Racket, for example.  And although I've bought in to some
of the Racket elegance, I decided to just simplify my life in the end.)
It took me many years to realize that, but I finally did.  On my first
weekend with Common Lisp I noticed I never had more fun with a
programming language---perhaps when I studied C while writing an IRC
robot without using the standard io libraries.

If I were to understand enough about RISC-V, say, to the point of being
able to read and make small changes to a certain toy operating system or
something like that, I would be very pleased to, say, give a lecture to
a computer user's group on how things work---what a computer is, how it
works, what the function of an operating system is.  Of course I could
do a presentation on the topic without knowing how these things really
work, but that's not me.  I like to say that 1 + 1 = 2 and then define
the successor function, define addition, define some of the numerals and
show Peano meant with ``1 + 1 = 2''.  In fact, one the chief things I
love about computers is that we can---without having access to a
particle accelerator, if you know what I mean---show what everything in
it is about.  It's accessible.  (As math is.)

But I wouldn't major in electrical engineering (at first), you see?  I
wouldn't get as low as electricity---it's a complete change of subject.
It turns out I majored in mathematics because back then I thought it was
smarter to follow the ideas and not quite the hardware.  The hardware
was too fast-changing, so I thought it was a lose to study it seriously.
Now I think that was a mistake.  (It doesn't *significantly* change.)  I
still think it was right to spend the years on math, but the mistake was
in ignoring hardware.  I ended up falling in love with mathematics and
went as deep into it as I could, but because computers had always been
my passion, I ended up coming back to them later and I can't see much
use for all the math I studied, even though it still seems pretty useful
indirectly---so no great regrets.  (Math has been my best training in
reading.  After I graduated, I thought I could read anything---clearly
an exaggeration, but I'm sure you get what I mean.)  I feel pretty happy
and lucky that I enjoy with so many things.  It doesn't help me to
became an expert in anything, but I am not trying to win any prize
anyway.  I'm not competitive; rather, I'm cooperative.

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z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-07-18 23:07 +0800
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    Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-07-19 18:43 +0800
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            Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 07:51 -0700
              Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-07-22 15:22 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 09:07 -0700
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-07-22 17:37 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-07-22 18:07 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-07-22 19:38 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 11:18 -0700
              Re: z/PDOS-generic BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 14:16 -0500
                Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-07-22 20:14 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 18:03 -0500
                Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-07-22 23:58 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 23:06 -0500
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-21 04:31 +0800
                Re: z/PDOS-generic BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-08-28 02:28 -0500
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-28 16:54 +0800
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-28 16:58 +0800
                Re: z/PDOS-generic BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-08-28 18:03 -0500
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-29 11:14 +0800
                Re: z/PDOS-generic George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2024-08-30 06:49 -0400
                Re: z/PDOS-generic George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2024-08-30 10:27 -0400
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-31 10:21 +0800
                Re: z/PDOS-generic George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2024-08-31 15:30 -0400
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-09-03 14:27 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic wolfgang kern <nowhere@never.at> - 2024-08-30 13:29 +0200
          Re: z/PDOS-generic Waldek Hebisch <antispam@fricas.org> - 2024-09-03 23:38 +0000
            Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-09-06 07:46 +0800
              Re: z/PDOS-generic J. Curtis <unknown@protocol.invalid> - 2024-09-06 20:08 +0100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-09-07 08:12 +0800
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-01-22 17:34 +1100
        Re: z/PDOS-generic J. Curtis <unknown@protocol.invalid> - 2024-07-20 00:02 +0100
        Re: z/PDOS-generic Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-03-08 14:42 -0300
          Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-09 02:09 +0000
            Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-03-09 15:40 +0000
              Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 12:38 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-03-10 14:49 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 15:00 +0000
            Re: z/PDOS-generic Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-03-10 09:21 -0300
              Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 13:50 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-03-10 14:10 -0300
                Studying the system (was Re: z/PDOS-generic) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 18:29 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 05:38 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-03-10 19:07 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 19:09 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-03-10 13:00 -0700
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 20:20 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 07:59 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-03-10 15:11 -0700
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 23:11 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 10:51 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 08:37 -0700
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-11 17:28 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-12 05:40 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 12:41 -0700
                What is an operating system? (was Re: z/PDOS-generic) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-11 21:00 +0000
                Re: What is an operating system? (was Re: z/PDOS-generic) "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-12 17:30 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 09:04 -0700
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 08:29 +1100
            Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 05:06 +1100
              Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-03-10 19:01 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 08:04 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 08:47 +1100
            Re: z/PDOS-generic antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-03-11 18:15 +0000
              Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-11 18:29 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-12 05:52 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-03-11 23:05 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-11 23:48 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-03-12 02:23 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-12 02:34 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-12 18:41 +1100
      Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-07-19 09:35 -0700
        Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-21 04:20 +0800
          Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-08-21 09:51 -0700
            Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-22 13:24 +0800
      Re: z/PDOS-generic Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2024-07-19 19:46 -0500
        Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-21 04:18 +0800
    Re: z/PDOS-generic Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-03-08 14:41 -0300
      Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-09 01:58 +0000
        Re: z/PDOS-generic Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-03-10 09:31 -0300
          Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 14:28 +0000
          Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-03-10 14:46 +0000

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