Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.

From	Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.user
Subject	Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.
Date	2019-08-11 00:50 +0200
Message-ID	<ytIls-5UO-7@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <ythOi-607-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <ytus9-5wf-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <ytvHz-6te-13@gated-at.bofh.it> <ytvRf-6wE-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <ytBai-1y7-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
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On 11/08/19 3:06 AM, David Wright wrote:
> On Sat 10 Aug 2019 at 21:19:31 (+1200), Richard Hector wrote:
>> On 10/08/19 9:10 PM, deloptes wrote:
>>> Richard Hector wrote:
>>>
>>>> <rant>
>>>> Sorry, this usage grates with me.
>>>>
>>>> $amount cheaper that $price means subtract $amount from $price
>>>>
>>>> $x times $price means multiply $price by $x
>>>>
>>>> so "2 times cheaper (than $450)" is:
>>>>
>>>> $450 - (2 x $450) = -$450.
>>>
>>> so what multiplied  by 2 gives 450? 
>>>
>>> 450     is      100% or 1
>>> 225     is      50%  or 1/2
>>
>> Right, so 225 is 50% cheaper, or half cheaper. Not twice cheaper.
>>
>>> perhaps this is the confusion, cause we are using daily language to refer to
>>> maths.
>>
>> Daily language is the problem, yes. I'm not saying my fight is an easy
>> one :-)
>>
>>> In fact I would do it the other way around.
>>>
>>> initial price   x
>>> 1xtime          x+(1*x)
>>> 2xtimes         x+(2*x)
>>>
>>> this gives x=150
>>
>> 450 is two times more expensive than 150 (or 200% more than), or three
>> times as expensive as 150 (or 300% as expensive).
>> 300 is two times as expensive as 150, or 100% more expensive than 150
>>
>> We know that these don't work symmetrically; if you have a 50% discount,
>> you can't get the original price back by adding 50%, because it's 50% of
>> a different number.
> 
> "Expensive" is a dimensional term, like length and time. "Cheap" is in
> a different category, like shortness. A 6-inch nail is twice as long
> as a 3-inch nail, but one doesn't say the latter is twice as short.

Agreed. I prefer to avoid multipliers with inverted dimension terms like
that.

> But if someone asked for a nail twice as short as this (holding up a
> 6-inch nail), you might assume they were a non-native speaker of
> English, or you might notice you're almost twice as tall as they are:
> ie it's a child. (And it would be polite to offer them a 3-inch
> nail. Learning all the categories takes time, and some people might
> have slightly different boundaries.)

I wouldn't assume that; it's a common usage, even though I consider it
wrong :-)  A bit like the American habit of saying "I could care less",
which also doesn't mean what they mean it to mean :-)

> It's pretty obvious that Reco's meaning for cheapness was meant to be
> understood as a reciprocal cost and not as a discount. It might be a
> legitimate idiom in some parts; who knows.

Agreed. And many would consider it a 'legitimate idiom'. I personally
consider that from a linguistic and mathematical perspective, it doesn't
make sense.

> One hears stories of pedants insisting they be paid to carry goods out
> of the shop because they were labelled "10x cheaper". No way José.

I haven't actually insisted on that, but I've certainly thought it :-)

Similarly, one of our local fuel stations has (or had) vouchers that say
things like '10c per litre off every litre of fuel' - which also quickly
gets into trouble if taken literally :-)

Richard

Thread

Server hardware advice. Steven Mainor <steve@degga.net> - 2019-08-07 07:40 +0200
  Re: Server hardware advice. Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2019-08-07 08:00 +0200
    Re: Server hardware advice. Steven Mainor <steve@degga.net> - 2019-08-07 08:10 +0200
      Re: Server hardware advice. Nektarios Katakis <nektarios@mail.nektarioskatakis.xyz> - 2019-08-07 12:20 +0200
        Re: Server hardware advice. mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-08-07 14:10 +0200
      Re: Server hardware advice. deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-08-07 17:00 +0200
        Re: Server hardware advice. Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-07 17:10 +0200
          Re: Server hardware advice. deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-08-07 17:20 +0200
            Re: Server hardware advice. Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-07 17:40 +0200
            Re: Server hardware advice. ghe <ghe@slsware.net> - 2019-08-07 17:50 +0200
            Re: Server hardware advice. Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2019-08-08 00:20 +0200
        Re: Server hardware advice. Steven Mainor <steve@degga.net> - 2019-08-07 18:50 +0200
          Re: Server hardware advice. deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-08-08 07:50 +0200
            Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2019-08-08 11:00 +0200
              Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2019-08-08 12:50 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-08-08 14:10 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2019-08-08 16:20 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-08-08 17:00 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-08-08 17:20 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-08-08 18:00 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) Judah Richardson <judahrichardson@gmail.com> - 2019-08-08 21:50 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-08-09 00:50 +0200
                [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-08-09 10:00 +0200
                Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) Étienne Mollier <etienne.mollier@mailoo.org> - 2019-08-09 11:20 +0200
                Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-08-09 11:50 +0200
                Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) Étienne Mollier <etienne.mollier@mailoo.org> - 2019-08-09 12:30 +0200
                Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) tomas@tuxteam.de - 2019-08-09 14:40 +0200
                Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) Étienne Mollier <etienne.mollier@mailoo.org> - 2019-08-09 15:50 +0200
                Re: [OT] Helpful attitude John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-08-09 15:50 +0200
                Re: [OT] Helpful attitude The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2019-08-09 16:00 +0200
                Re: [OT] Helpful attitude Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2019-08-09 16:10 +0200
                Re: [OT] Helpful attitude Étienne Mollier <etienne.mollier@mailoo.org> - 2019-08-09 16:10 +0200
                Re: [OT] Helpful attitude John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-08-09 17:30 +0200
                Re: [OT] Helpful attitude Étienne Mollier <etienne.mollier@mailoo.org> - 2019-08-09 19:00 +0200
                Re: [OT] Helpful attitude deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-08-09 18:30 +0200
                Re: [OT] Helpful attitude Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-09 20:50 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-08-08 22:20 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-08-09 16:10 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) ghe <ghe@slsware.net> - 2019-08-09 08:20 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-08-09 09:20 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) "Bob Crochelt" <rfc56@fastmail.com> - 2019-08-09 14:00 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-08-09 16:20 +0200
                Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) "Bob Crochelt" <rfc56@fastmail.com> - 2019-08-10 00:00 +0200
              Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-08-08 14:10 +0200
  Re: Server hardware advice. Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-07 09:00 +0200
    Re: Server hardware advice. john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2019-08-07 09:40 +0200
      Re: Server hardware advice. Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-08-07 10:50 +0200
    Re: Server hardware advice. Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-08-07 10:30 +0200
      Re: Server hardware advice. Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-07 11:00 +0200
        Re: Server hardware advice. Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-08-07 11:10 +0200
      Re: Server hardware advice. Steven Mainor <steve@degga.net> - 2019-08-07 12:10 +0200
        Re: Server hardware advice. Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-08-07 12:50 +0200
      Re: Server hardware advice. jochen-2019-q2@ozark.de - 2019-08-07 22:40 +0200
      Re: Server hardware advice. Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2019-08-08 09:30 +0200
        Re: Server hardware advice. John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-08-09 05:20 +0200
          Re: Server hardware advice. Steven Mainor <steve@degga.net> - 2019-08-09 08:00 +0200
            Re: Server hardware advice. John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-08-09 15:40 +0200
              Re: Server hardware advice. deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-08-09 18:20 +0200
                Re: Server hardware advice. Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-09 19:00 +0200
                Re: Server hardware advice. Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2019-08-09 19:20 +0200
                Re: Server hardware advice. Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-09 20:30 +0200
                OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice. Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2019-08-10 10:00 +0200
                Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice. deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-08-10 11:20 +0200
                Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice. Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2019-08-10 11:30 +0200
                Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-08-10 17:10 +0200
                Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice. Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2019-08-11 00:50 +0200
                Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice. mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-08-11 09:50 +0200
                Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice. Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-08-11 12:00 +0200
                Re: Server hardware advice. John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-08-09 19:50 +0200
                Re: Server hardware advice. Steven Mainor <steve@degga.net> - 2019-08-10 04:00 +0200
    Re: Server hardware advice. Steven Mainor <steve@degga.net> - 2019-08-07 12:00 +0200
      Re: Server hardware advice. Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-07 13:00 +0200
  Re: Server hardware advice. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2019-08-08 09:10 +0200
    Re: Server hardware advice. John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-08-08 15:20 +0200
    Re: Server hardware advice. Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2019-08-08 15:50 +0200
      Re: Server hardware advice. Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2019-08-08 16:30 +0200
        Re: Server hardware advice. Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-08-08 17:00 +0200
          Re: Server hardware advice. Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-08 17:30 +0200
            Re: Server hardware advice. Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-08-08 18:20 +0200
              Re: Server hardware advice. Steven Mainor <steve@degga.net> - 2019-08-08 22:50 +0200
                Re: Server hardware advice. Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2019-08-08 23:10 +0200
                Re: Server hardware advice. Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-08 23:20 +0200
        Re: Server hardware advice. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2019-08-09 00:10 +0200
  Re: Server hardware advice. Igor Cicimov <icicimov@gmail.com> - 2019-08-09 12:20 +0200

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