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Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?

From Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.arch
Subject Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It?
Date 2025-05-13 08:33 -0700
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <vvvons$3uvs3$2@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <vvribg$npn4$1@dont-email.me> <vvs343$ulkk$1@dont-email.me> <vvtt4d$1b8s7$4@dont-email.me> <2025May13.094035@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <vvuuua$1mt7m$1@dont-email.me>

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On 5/13/2025 1:12 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Tue, 13 May 2025 07:40:35 GMT, Anton Ertl wrote:
> 
>> In this case the drive knows things that the OS does not: Consider that
>> the OS asked for sector N what happens when the arm finally has settled
>> enough to read from the track, and the first sector it sees is sector
>> N+10.
> 
> The OS isn’t likely to ask for one sector at a time.

Frequently true, so consider this related scenario.  The host requests a 
read of 10 sectors starting at sector N.  When the head settles, the 
next sector is N+6.  Without any in drive buffering, it would wait 
almost a full revolution till record N comes under the head.

With buffering, but no cache, the drive reads record N+5 to N+9 into the 
buffer, then waits until the drive rotates to record N and begins the 
host transfer.  This is an improvement because the transfer to the host 
is faster than the transfer from the disk, and the last 3 sectors can be 
transferred out of the buffer without waiting for the disk, so the 
transfer is completed faster.

Now consider with caching.  Similar, but after record N+9, the drive 
continues reading into the cache.  Lets say there are 30 records on this 
track.  If it reads all of the data into the cache, then proceeds as 
above once the disk rotates to record N, it has cost zero time, and if 
the host then issues another 10 sector read sequential to the initial 
one (or actually any sectors from N+10 to N+29).  This can be satisfied 
out of the cache without any drive delay, so much faster than without 
the cache, and the heads can be moved away to start satisfying another 
unrelated request.  There is minimal cost and substantial benefit.

Now you have argued that the file system cache should take care of that, 
presumably issuing prefetch reads for the next sectors.  This will work, 
of course, but has some disadvantages relative to using the drive cache. 
  Specifically,since it is unlikely the prefetch request will be 
received by the drive before record N+10 has passed the heads, it will 
incur additional most of a rotational delay, which will tie up the 
drive, preventing it from responding to some other request.

No one is arguing that host based file caches are bad.  It is simply the 
fact that there are situations where drive caches are a useful addition, 
and since the drive has to have some DRAM anyway for other reasons, the 
cost is minimal. You can think of the drive cache as the "next level" 
cache behind the host based cache.


-- 
  - Stephen Fuld
(e-mail address disguised to prevent spam)

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Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2025-05-10 11:38 +0000
  Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-11 00:04 +0000
    Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-11 13:59 +0000
      Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> - 2025-05-11 07:47 -0700
        Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-11 23:46 +0000
          Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-12 00:30 +0000
            Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-12 01:19 +0000
              Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-12 02:03 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-12 22:34 +0000
              Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2025-05-12 08:05 +0200
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-12 08:41 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-12 22:39 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-12 17:14 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-12 22:35 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-12 21:50 -0400
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-13 03:03 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-12 23:25 -0400
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-13 08:39 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2025-05-13 12:55 -0400
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-13 07:40 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-13 08:12 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-13 08:33 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-14 00:18 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-13 17:49 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-18 01:35 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2025-05-18 14:10 -1000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-18 18:41 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-19 21:46 +0100
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-19 14:58 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-20 11:22 +0100
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2025-05-20 16:38 -1000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-20 20:49 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-19 00:18 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-19 01:13 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-19 23:33 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-20 00:36 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 00:16 -0500
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                Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 13:45 -0700
                Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-26 23:24 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-25 19:16 -0400
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-25 16:27 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-26 03:01 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-25 23:58 -0400
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2025-05-26 15:36 -1000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-05-26 20:14 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-26 07:13 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 07:31 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-05-26 19:20 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 14:12 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-30 01:42 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-29 20:25 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-30 05:53 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2025-05-31 12:53 -1000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-06-02 18:04 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-03 07:14 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-25 15:21 -0500
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-26 06:46 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-26 16:06 +0300
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-26 16:30 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 13:00 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 13:04 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 14:15 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 15:20 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 15:40 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 16:02 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 16:07 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-27 18:40 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-27 12:28 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-27 12:42 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-29 05:10 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-29 15:31 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-30 01:17 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-29 15:33 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-27 12:28 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-26 23:12 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-26 23:32 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 19:00 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-05-27 09:43 +0200
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                Re: Drive Caches (Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, ...) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-26 00:07 -0400
                Re: Drive Caches (Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, ...) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 00:59 -0500
                Re: Drive Caches (Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-26 07:13 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-23 22:19 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2025-05-23 20:51 -0400
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-17 23:57 +0000
  Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? quadibloc <quadibloc@gmail.com> - 2025-05-19 21:33 +0000
    Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-20 00:43 +0000
      Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-20 13:53 +0000
        Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 13:19 -0500
          Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-20 16:06 -0400
            Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-20 22:11 +0000
              Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? David Schultz <david.schultz@earthlink.net> - 2025-05-20 19:34 -0500
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 01:00 +0000
              Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 00:34 +0000
              Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2025-05-20 21:30 -0400
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 18:39 -0700
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 03:41 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2025-05-21 12:09 -0400
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-21 15:30 -0400
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-22 02:45 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2025-05-21 07:06 -1000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2025-05-21 17:32 -0400
              Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-21 07:05 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-22 02:48 +0000
              Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-21 08:23 -0400
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-21 14:08 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-22 02:49 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-22 17:34 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-22 17:42 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-23 01:54 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-22 22:42 +0000
                Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2025-05-22 23:47 -0400
            Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 00:32 +0000
              Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 18:29 -0700
          Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 18:04 -0700
            Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-22 16:49 -0700
              Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-22 18:04 -0700
  Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 18:31 -0700

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