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Groups > alt.comp.os.windows-10 > #182418

Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode

From Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
Newsgroups alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode
Date 2025-02-19 01:39 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <vp3uac$25ak3$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <vot2et.1p4.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net> <voth0f.7r0.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net> <votmlm$p6vf$1@dont-email.me> <se25wnqyqvch$.dlg@v.nguard.lh> <vovcd7$15ea5$1@dont-email.me>

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On Mon, 2/17/2025 8:08 AM, John C. wrote:
> On 25/02/16 04:48 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>> "John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 25/02/16 11:15 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>> Earlier today, I wrote:
>>>>> John C. <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/02/16 06:02 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> Thanks for this info, Frank. However, my desktop dates back to *ahem*
>>>>>> *cough* about 2010. No UEFI.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Are you sure that your desktop doesn't have UEFI? UEFI started in 2005
>>>>> and by 2007 already had its third spec (version 2.0). UEFI can be quite
>>>>> 'invisible if you don't know it's there and don't know how to enter it.
>>>>>
>>>>>   An easy way to tell one or the other is just try the recipe you
>>>>> posted:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> <you>
>>>>>>>>>> Windows 10:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Shift + Restart:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On the sign-in screen, press and hold the Shift key while
>>>>>>>>>> selecting Power > Restart.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Navigate to Troubleshoot > Advanced options > Startup Settings.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Click Restart and then choose 4 for Safe Mode or 5 for Safe Mode
>>>>>>>>>> with Networking.
>>>>>>> </you>
>>>>>
>>>>>   If where it says 'Navigate to Troubleshoot' you get a screen labeled
>>>>> 'Choose an option' which includes the mentioned 'Troubleshoot' option,
>>>>> you *do* have UEFI.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Alternatively, you can use Computer Management -> Storage -> Disk
>>>>> Management. If that lists an 'EFI' partition, you have UEFI.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Even simpler if you have Macrium Reflect, that will say '[EUFI]' on
>>>>> the top bar.
>>>>
>>>>   Yet another method mentioned by VanguardLH elsewhere in this thread:
>>>>
>>>>   In a 'Run as administrator' Command Prompt window, run 'bcdedit'
>>>> (without options/arguments). That will say 'efi' (ignore case), in
>>>> several places, if you have an UEFI system.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the info, Frank. I tried Disk Management and there's no
>>> lsting of an efi partition.
>>>
>>> Ran bcdedit at a command prompt, and no mention of efi.
>>>
>>> System was purchased on June 25, 2011.
>>
>> Just because UEFI got adopted by mobo makers doesn't mean sellers
>> weren't still selling their old MBR stock of mobos.  That was a
>> transition period.
> 
> Yeah, that's what I figured too. And the system was purchased at a
> Costco store. It was given to me by a relative. Still a good computer
> though IMO.
> 

https://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html

     ZIP - English

If you run CPU-Z portable version, in the Mainboard tab, it does
not tell you whether the BIOS is one type or another.

However, the "About" tab on the top-right, has "Save Report (.TXT)"
and that has a lot more detail in it. For my DailyDriver, it says
for example:

   WALLACE.txt     <=== machine-name

BIOS

UEFI               Yes                      <=== not a lot of detail...
BIOS Vendor        American Megatrends Inc.
BIOS MSG           63-0100-000001-00101111-122418-Chipset
BIOS Date          12/24/18
Mainboard Vendor   000001
AMD AGESA          ComboAM4v2PI 1.2.0.Ca    <=== PCH stokes CPU at startup, with a bitstream

Then, elsewhere in the file, it claims a certain EEPROM size for the BIOS.
A legacy BIOS could be 128KB in size, so relatively cheap to build. The
DMI is the "decorative fluff" and any information here has no effect
on system operation, and the contents could be completely imaginary.

DMI

SMBIOS Version    2.8

DMI BIOS
   vendor         American Megatrends International LLC.
   version        1.I0
   date           07/13/2024
   ROM size       16384 KB    <===

One of the reasons a UEFI BIOS is so big, is 4MB of it (4096KB)
is set aside for "boot path memory". Every time you change-up disks
in the machine, the boot path is stored for some reason. Yet, caching
the boot path, doesn't particularly seem to "accelerate" anything.

This feature of UEFI is referred to as NVRAM (non volatile RAM)
even though it is really a flash memory. The 256 byte CMOS memory in the PCH
is also referred to as NVRAM, but it is the real NVRAM (battery powered
static RAM cells).

The BIOS must also "manage" this area. One BIOS design forgot the
need to "flush" the 4MB region when it gets to a certain fullness,
and the motherboard actually "jams up" when it runs out of boot path
storage space. There aren't many boards where that happened, but
it was a bit of a QA wakeup call for the people creating the
UEFI BIOS design.

A 128KB legacy BIOS motherboard, won't have 4096KB of NVRAM (NOR Flash)
to store such variables, so the BIOS chip from that perspective
has to be pretty big, to stand a chance of doing that.

It is quite normal for the BIOS to have "self-flashing capability".
That's been present since at least year 2000. In fact, some BIOS flashing
procedures, use the flash routine store in the BIOS, to flash the BIOS :-)
(Don't worry, the BIOS is shadowed in system RAM...)

Not all boards have replacement BIOS images, like an OEM board
could get by with just the initial BIOS images stored. However,
the Secure Boot bugs have required a certain amount of fixing,
so at least in the last two or three years, there's been an
uptick in the availability of replacement BIOS images. You have
to be fairly careful when decompressing one of those images,
to "re-inflate it to the correct size". Working with the BIOS
file from the manufacturer web site, is not easy, but given my
DMI is declaring one monster of a BIOS chip, I would want a
second opinion by using 7ZIP on the file.

Name: 7C56v1I1.zip
Size: 18216711 bytes (17 MiB)
SHA256: D7216262F760291AAE2FC275E6E0EAC974CFEF67467F09B7D5CF7B6F37356B74

It is kind of a monster :-) "Must be a UEFI", a fairly mild confirmation.
A regular BIOS simply does not need to be anywhere near that big.

When that file is unpacked, the size is 33554432. If that is a power-of-two
number, then that's how ROMs are sold, is power-of-two for NOR flash EEPROMS.

factor 33554432
33554432: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2

It's actually 32MB! A hell of a lot bigger than a 128KB legacy BIOS.

   Paul

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Thread

How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> - 2025-02-12 05:51 -0800
  Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> - 2025-02-12 06:03 -0800
  Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "Allan Higdon" <allanh@vivaldi.net> - 2025-02-12 08:06 -0600
    Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> - 2025-02-12 06:16 -0800
      Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "Allan Higdon" <allanh@vivaldi.net> - 2025-02-12 08:55 -0600
      Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-02-16 14:02 +0000
        Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> - 2025-02-16 06:26 -0800
          Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-02-16 15:36 +0000
            Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-02-16 19:15 +0000
              Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> - 2025-02-16 13:51 -0800
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-02-16 18:48 -0600
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> - 2025-02-17 05:08 -0800
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-02-19 01:39 -0500
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-02-17 15:42 +0000
              Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2025-02-16 20:48 -0600
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-02-17 15:42 +0000
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-02-17 12:11 -0600
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-02-17 18:57 +0000
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2025-02-18 01:36 -0600
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "Bill Bradshaw" <bradshaw@gci.net> - 2025-02-18 11:14 -0900
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2025-02-18 00:29 -0600
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Mr Xi Ji Ping <ping@china.cn> - 2025-02-19 03:16 +0000
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-02-19 04:02 -0500
    Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "Alan K." <alan@invalid.com> - 2025-02-12 16:43 -0500
  Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-02-12 12:44 -0600
    Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "Allan Higdon" <allanh@vivaldi.net> - 2025-02-12 15:25 -0600
  Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-02-12 19:16 -0500
    Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> - 2025-02-13 05:18 -0800
  Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2025-02-13 03:28 +0000
    Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Uncle Sam <uncle.sam@usa.com> - 2025-02-13 03:58 +0000
      Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> - 2025-02-13 05:27 -0800
    Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-02-13 03:01 -0500
  Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-02-15 08:48 -0600
    Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-02-15 08:56 -0600
      Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "Allan Higdon" <allanh@vivaldi.net> - 2025-02-16 09:34 -0600
        Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-02-16 12:27 -0600
          Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "Allan Higdon" <allanh@vivaldi.net> - 2025-02-16 15:29 -0600
            Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-02-16 18:45 -0600
              Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-02-17 16:06 +0000
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-02-17 10:28 -0600
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-02-17 16:51 +0000
        Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-02-16 20:01 -0500
    Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-02-15 09:40 -0600
      Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> - 2025-02-16 06:32 -0800
        Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-02-16 12:30 -0600
          Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> - 2025-02-16 13:56 -0800
            Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-02-16 18:46 -0600
              Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode "John C." <r9jmg0@yahoo.com> - 2025-02-17 05:33 -0800
                Re: How to boot into Windows 10 Safe Mode VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-02-17 10:15 -0600

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