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Re: We have a new standard!

From Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: We have a new standard!
Date 2025-01-03 10:13 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <vl8d8v$3rr84$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <vl625a$3bj9b$1@dont-email.me> <vl66j6$3cbce$1@dont-email.me> <vl6gbr$3e4rd$1@dont-email.me> <vl6hj7$3ecmh$1@dont-email.me> <87pll4sws5.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com>

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On Thu, 02 Jan 2025 13:58:34 -0800
Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wibbled:
>Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org writes:
>> On Thu, 2 Jan 2025 17:54:18 +0100
>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wibbled:
>>>On 02/01/2025 15:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>> Overloading << and >> was unnecessary and confusing.
>>>
>>>Disagreed.  I really don't think it was problematic.  Nor did any of the 
>>>/many/ people who were involved in the design of C++.  Remember, the 
>>>language and library has always been discussed, prototyped, and tested 
>>>by lots of people before being released.  Stroustrup was the main 
>>>language designer, but he was far from alone.
>>
>> Committees often don't come up with optimal solutions. Using the same
>operator
>> for 2 entirely different operations unrelated in either concept or function
>> when there was no need to was illogical and perverse.
>
>Like "*" for multiplication and pointer dereferencing?  Like "&" for
>bitwise "and" and address-of?  Like "-" for negation and subtraction?

As you well know they derived from C and couldn't be changed. However I don't
believe using "&" for references was the best choice but at least it sort of
makes sense in context.

>> I would expect all mathematical operations to work in EXACTLY the same way
>> in an output stream.
>
>I would expect << and >> to have their usual precedence whether
>overloaded or not.

You're missing the point.

>>                      Eg I expect the output to be 256 here:
>>
>> std::cout << 255 + 1 << std::endl;
>
>Which it is.

No shit.

>> std::cout << 255 << 1 << std::endl;
>>
>> Thats perverse.
>
>Apparently your expectation was incorrect.

Don't be obtuse for the sake of arguing.

>    std::cout << n = 42 << "\n";
>
>and it won't compile, but parentheses are an easy fix and a good idea
>anyway.
>
>How often has it really been a problem for you?

Given I do a lot of bit twiddling low level code, more than you might
expect. And its not a problem per se as it can be solved with brackets, I'm
simply saying it was a daft design decision to overload << and >> when Bjarne
could have easily created new operators at no cost. There was NO requirement
in this case to be compatible with C because streams were C++ specific
functionality.

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Thread

Re: We have a new standard! Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-01 18:25 +0200
  Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-01 16:33 +0000
    Re: We have a new standard! Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-01-01 09:41 -0800
    Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-02 08:06 +0100
      Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-02 09:23 +0000
        Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-02 13:51 +0100
          Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-02 14:07 +0000
            Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-02 17:54 +0100
              Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-02 17:15 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-01-02 13:58 -0800
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-03 10:13 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-01-03 11:22 -0800
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-04 10:17 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-04 12:31 +0100
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-04 11:34 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-04 14:01 +0100
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-04 15:49 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-01-03 17:42 -0800
              Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-02 15:20 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-03 13:43 +0100
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 08:11 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-03 16:33 +0200
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 10:50 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-03 16:09 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 11:53 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-03 17:10 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 12:14 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-04 10:13 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-03 18:17 +0100
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 13:58 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-04 12:39 +0100
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-04 09:56 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-03 21:46 +0200
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 21:06 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-01-03 18:32 -0800
                Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-04 20:08 +0200
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-04 14:46 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-01-05 07:14 +0800
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-06 08:38 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-01-07 08:40 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-07 14:04 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-01-08 14:52 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-01-08 13:31 -0800
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-09 08:39 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-07 21:32 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-01-03 17:49 -0800
                Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-03 17:12 +0100
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 11:56 -0500
          Re: We have a new standard! Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-02 17:35 +0200
            Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-02 17:57 +0100
              Re: We have a new standard! Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-02 19:55 +0200
      Re: We have a new standard! Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-01-02 13:40 -0800
        Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-03 09:42 +0100
    Re: We have a new standard! Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-01-02 13:38 -0800
      Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-03 10:09 +0000
        Re: We have a new standard! Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-01-03 11:19 -0800
          Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-04 10:15 +0000
  Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-01 22:43 +0200
    Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-02 07:56 +0100
    Re: We have a new standard! Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-02 00:39 -0800
      Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-02 12:31 +0200
        Re: We have a new standard! Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-02 14:59 +0200
          Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-02 15:50 +0200
        Re: We have a new standard! Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-07 21:15 -0800
          Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-08 08:44 +0200
            Re: We have a new standard! Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-08 11:44 +0200
              Re: We have a new standard! James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-01-08 15:04 -0500
              Re: We have a new standard! Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-14 08:49 -0800
            Re: We have a new standard! Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-14 09:12 -0800
              Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-14 19:53 +0200
          Re: We have a new standard! "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-01-08 14:43 -0800
    Re: We have a new standard! scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-01-02 20:51 +0000
  Re: We have a new standard! Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-02 16:47 +0200

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