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Groups > comp.lang.c++ > #121365

Re: We have a new standard!

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: We have a new standard!
Date 2025-01-02 08:06 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <vl5dst$37mo5$2@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <C++-20241227154547@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de> <20250101182527.00004b2f@yahoo.com> <vl3qpk$2rr3n$1@dont-email.me>

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On 01/01/2025 17:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 18:25:27 +0200
> Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> gabbled:
>> Introduction of format() already showed that C++ committee is aware of
>> of the fact that "Stroustrup streams" are crap not only relatively to
>> format/printing facilities of more modern languages, but relatively
>> to what we have in C as well. std::print() proves that committee is not
>> only aware of the fact, but finally willing to consider fixes.
> 
> Plus overloading << and >> was a cretinous decision. There was zero reason
> he couldn't have created some new operators to avoid confusion, <<< and >>>
> or <= , => for example where such combinations in C would never be legal
> syntax anyway.
> 

I don't actually agree - I think the choice of << and >> was not a bad 
one, though <= and => could have worked too.  Adding new operators just 
for the purpose of streams would have been overkill, IMHO.  The big 
alternative would have been to have a way to add new operators to the 
language.  That would have been a huge change to C++ - the language, the 
tools, and the way we write code.  Maybe it would have been good, maybe 
bad, but certainly it would have been big.

IMHO the real mistake for iostreams for formatted output was making them 
modal - IO manipulators are a /terrible/ idea.  The type system and 
overloading should have been used instead, so that we would write :

	cout << hex(x);

instead of

	cout << hex << x << dec;


There are still plenty of other issues with the iostreams formatted 
output, but the choice of operator is the least of the problems.

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Thread

Re: We have a new standard! Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-01 18:25 +0200
  Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-01 16:33 +0000
    Re: We have a new standard! Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-01-01 09:41 -0800
    Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-02 08:06 +0100
      Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-02 09:23 +0000
        Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-02 13:51 +0100
          Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-02 14:07 +0000
            Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-02 17:54 +0100
              Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-02 17:15 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-01-02 13:58 -0800
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-03 10:13 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-01-03 11:22 -0800
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-04 10:17 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-04 12:31 +0100
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-04 11:34 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-04 14:01 +0100
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-04 15:49 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-01-03 17:42 -0800
              Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-02 15:20 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-03 13:43 +0100
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 08:11 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-03 16:33 +0200
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 10:50 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-03 16:09 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 11:53 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-03 17:10 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 12:14 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-04 10:13 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-03 18:17 +0100
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 13:58 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-04 12:39 +0100
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-04 09:56 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-03 21:46 +0200
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 21:06 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-01-03 18:32 -0800
                Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-04 20:08 +0200
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-04 14:46 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-01-05 07:14 +0800
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-06 08:38 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-01-07 08:40 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-07 14:04 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-01-08 14:52 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-01-08 13:31 -0800
                Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-09 08:39 +0000
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-07 21:32 -0500
                Re: We have a new standard! Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-01-03 17:49 -0800
                Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-03 17:12 +0100
                Re: We have a new standard! Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2025-01-03 11:56 -0500
          Re: We have a new standard! Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-02 17:35 +0200
            Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-02 17:57 +0100
              Re: We have a new standard! Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-02 19:55 +0200
      Re: We have a new standard! Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-01-02 13:40 -0800
        Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-03 09:42 +0100
    Re: We have a new standard! Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-01-02 13:38 -0800
      Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-01-03 10:09 +0000
        Re: We have a new standard! Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-01-03 11:19 -0800
          Re: We have a new standard! Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-01-04 10:15 +0000
  Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-01 22:43 +0200
    Re: We have a new standard! David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-01-02 07:56 +0100
    Re: We have a new standard! Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-02 00:39 -0800
      Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-02 12:31 +0200
        Re: We have a new standard! Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-02 14:59 +0200
          Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-02 15:50 +0200
        Re: We have a new standard! Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-07 21:15 -0800
          Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-08 08:44 +0200
            Re: We have a new standard! Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-08 11:44 +0200
              Re: We have a new standard! James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-01-08 15:04 -0500
              Re: We have a new standard! Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-14 08:49 -0800
            Re: We have a new standard! Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2025-01-14 09:12 -0800
              Re: We have a new standard! Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2025-01-14 19:53 +0200
          Re: We have a new standard! "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-01-08 14:43 -0800
    Re: We have a new standard! scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-01-02 20:51 +0000
  Re: We have a new standard! Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-01-02 16:47 +0200

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