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Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe"

From "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe"
Date 2024-11-08 14:09 -0800
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <vgm26b$3cdkg$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <vgl8mg$386md$1@dont-email.me> <vgltbu$3bm14$1@dont-email.me> <47b2fbcfd0d7f49d6e7ebe51089bee646ee5ab29.camel@gmail.com> <vglvnv$3c2t2$2@dont-email.me> <da09f7379bfc1675ebedbc471af3e6467739640a.camel@gmail.com>

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On 11/8/2024 2:02 PM, wij wrote:
> On Fri, 2024-11-08 at 13:27 -0800, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>> On 11/8/2024 1:18 PM, wij wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2024-11-08 at 12:46 -0800, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>>> On 11/8/2024 6:54 AM, Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 08 Nov 2024 14:48:16 GMT
>>>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) boring babbled:
>>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> On 10/30/2024 11:56 AM, jseigh wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/28/24 12:25, jseigh wrote:
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> The whole nullable pointer thing was a unrelated spin off of a
>>>>>>>>> solution I did for addressing pointer provenance as discussed in
>>>>>>>>> https://lwn.net/Articles/993484/ in the comments.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The nullable pointer solution I proposed is not super clear
>>>>>>>>> as it depends on behavior not presently in c++ so hard to
>>>>>>>>> show how the solution would work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At any rate, I don't have problems with nullable pointers or
>>>>>>>>> dealing with pointer provenance, and I don't have spare
>>>>>>>>> cycles to implement solutions for the latter, solutions I
>>>>>>>>> don't need.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I worked on this some more so I've gotten a better idea of
>>>>>>>> what they mean by pointer provenance.  I don't think will
>>>>>>>> solve all the issues they think it will.  I can come up
>>>>>>>> with some pretty trivial examples that will break their
>>>>>>>> proposed solutions.  I think they are unicorn hunting here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One of the issues they brought up is the ABA problem.  Yet
>>>>>>>> C/C++ has abjectly refused to support 50 year old hardware
>>>>>>>> features that would help for some ABA issues.  Kind of hard
>>>>>>>> to take the pointer provenance problem seriously.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe Seigh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is the ABA problem ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABA_problem
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Why's it a problem? Its why mutexes exist. Why would anyone expect non
>>>>> synchronised RW memory access to work? The exact same problem occurs
>>>>> in databases with dirty reads.
>>>>
>>>> Humm... Not sure what to make of that comment. Have you ever
>>>> experimented with lock-free algorithms?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why is it on topic?
>>>
>>> If "lock-free algorithms" is on topic, why just turn off multi-tasking?
>>>
>>
>> I am not exactly sure what you mean by your question wrt "why just turn
>> off multi-tasking"? Just use a single thread in your program?
> 
> Yes, early threads are actually a single thread, where lock is not necessary.

I am not sure what you mean by "early threads". Can you clarify a bit? 
Thanks.


> This remind me of a problem of the 'language'. Why we can't say:
> 
> thread void f(Arg arg1);      // 'thread' is keyword
> 
> instead of lots of "weird" syntax, if we want to talk about "language"?

C++ threading is fairly "flexible", well, imho. Wrt C11 threads its akin 
to PThreads. Well, minus the fine grain control we have wrt the "newer" 
standards... C++/C 11 and such. The DWCAS issue aside for a moment, its 
not all that bad.

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"Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2024-10-08 20:40 -0500
  Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-09 14:14 +0300
  Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2024-10-09 15:02 -0500
    Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-09 23:46 +0300
      Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-10-10 08:34 +0000
        Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-10 12:51 +0300
          Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-10-10 10:20 +0000
            Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-10 13:44 +0300
              Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-10-10 10:50 +0000
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-10 14:10 +0300
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-10-10 13:11 +0000
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-10 16:54 +0300
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-10-10 18:08 +0300
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-10-10 23:37 +0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-10-10 19:03 +0300
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-10 19:11 +0300
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-10-10 20:01 +0200
          Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-10-10 07:56 -0700
            Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-10 18:56 +0300
    Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-10-20 10:13 -0700
  Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2024-10-10 12:13 -0400
  Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-10-10 18:29 +0200
  Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2024-10-20 12:37 +0100
    Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-20 14:46 +0300
      Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-10-20 14:23 +0000
  Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2024-10-27 19:09 -0400
    Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2024-10-27 20:40 -0400
      Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-10-28 09:22 +0800
        Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-10-27 21:18 -0700
          Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2024-10-28 12:25 -0400
            Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2024-10-30 12:56 -0400
              Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-10-30 12:50 -0700
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2024-10-30 16:31 -0400
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-04 12:47 -0800
              Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2024-11-07 07:02 -0500
              Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2024-11-07 20:14 -0600
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2024-11-08 09:40 -0500
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-11-08 14:48 +0000
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-08 14:54 +0000
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-08 12:40 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-11-09 12:01 +0000
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-09 12:39 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-11 09:56 +0000
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-11 13:36 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Muttley@DastartdlyHQ.org - 2024-11-12 08:28 +0000
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-12 13:56 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-12 13:59 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-11-12 16:20 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-11-10 13:02 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-11-10 13:05 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-08 12:46 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-11-09 05:18 +0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-08 13:23 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-11-09 05:25 +0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-08 13:27 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-11-09 06:02 +0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-08 14:09 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-11-09 06:35 +0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-08 14:37 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-11-09 06:47 +0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-08 14:58 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-11-09 07:09 +0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-08 15:35 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-11-08 23:50 +0000
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-08 18:11 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-08 14:39 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-11-09 06:58 +0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-08 15:01 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-11-09 07:13 +0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-08 15:40 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-11-09 08:19 +0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-08 18:15 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-11-09 16:23 +0000
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-09 12:42 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-11-09 23:23 +0000
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-11-10 11:00 +0200
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-12 16:56 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-12 16:59 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-12 17:05 -0800
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-11-09 12:01 +0000
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2024-11-09 12:01 +0000
                Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-11-09 12:50 -0800
    Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-11-04 06:59 -0800
  Re: "Safe C++ is A new Proposal to Make C++ Memory-Safe" jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2024-11-30 10:03 -0500

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