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Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES

From olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.theory
Subject Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES
Date 2024-06-19 07:58 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <v4ukld$1vpm0$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <v4revs$18him$1@dont-email.me> <v4s07h$1boeu$5@dont-email.me> <v4sb8k$1e266$2@dont-email.me> <v4slo4$1g4ib$1@dont-email.me> <v4u33c$1rrod$1@dont-email.me>

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On 6/19/2024 2:58 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
> Op 18.jun.2024 om 21:04 schreef olcott:
>> On 6/18/2024 11:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-06-18 12:57:21 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 6/18/2024 3:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-06-17 13:03:56 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/17/2024 2:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-06-16 12:47:09 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/16/2024 2:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-06-15 16:22:09 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/13/2024 8:24 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>  > On 6/13/24 11:32 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>  >> It is contingent upon you to show the exact steps of how H 
>>>>>>>>>> computes
>>>>>>>>>>  >> the mapping from the x86 machine language finite string 
>>>>>>>>>> input to
>>>>>>>>>>  >> H(D,D) using the finite string transformation rules 
>>>>>>>>>> specified by
>>>>>>>>>>  >> the semantics of the x86 programming language that reaches 
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>  >> behavior of the directly executed D(D)
>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>  > Why? I don't claim it can.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The first six steps of this mapping are when instructions
>>>>>>>>>> at the machine address range of [00000cfc] to [00000d06]
>>>>>>>>>> are simulated/executed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> After that the behavior of D correctly simulated by H diverges
>>>>>>>>>> from the behavior of D(D) because the call to H(D,D) by D
>>>>>>>>>> correctly simulated by H cannot possibly return to D.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _D()
>>>>>>>>>> [00000cfc](01) 55          push ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [00000cfd](02) 8bec        mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>> [00000cff](03) 8b4508      mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>>> [00000d02](01) 50          push eax       ; push D
>>>>>>>>>> [00000d03](03) 8b4d08      mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>>> [00000d06](01) 51          push ecx       ; push D
>>>>>>>>>> [00000d07](05) e800feffff  call 00000b0c  ; call H
>>>>>>>>>> [00000d0c](03) 83c408      add esp,+08
>>>>>>>>>> [00000d0f](02) 85c0        test eax,eax
>>>>>>>>>> [00000d11](02) 7404        jz 00000d17
>>>>>>>>>> [00000d13](02) 33c0        xor eax,eax
>>>>>>>>>> [00000d15](02) eb05        jmp 00000d1c
>>>>>>>>>> [00000d17](05) b801000000  mov eax,00000001
>>>>>>>>>> [00000d1c](01) 5d          pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [00000d1d](01) c3          ret
>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0034) [00000d1d]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When you put "V2" or "V3" or something similar on the subject line
>>>>>>>>> you should tell what is different from the original version.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I ask what are the steps
>>>>>>>> I provide 6 steps and then ask what are the next steps.
>>>>>>>> I provide all of the steps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In which version?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *This is the simplest possible version*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>    H0(DDD);
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After six steps of DDD are correctly emulated by H0
>>>>>> what machine address of DDD would it be at?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>> [00001fd2] 55               push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>> [00001fd3] 8bec             mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>> [00001fd5] 68d21f0000       push 00001fd2 ; push DDD
>>>>>> [00001fda] e8f3f9ffff       call 000019d2 ; call H0
>>>>>> [00001fdf] 83c404           add esp,+04   ; housekeeping
>>>>>> [00001fe2] 5d               pop ebp       ; housekeeping
>>>>>> [00001fe3] c3               ret           ; return to caller
>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00001fe3]
>>>>>
>>>>> So how is this a difference between the original version and V2 and 
>>>>> V3?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No params thus easier to see that it pushes its own machine address.
>>>
>>> My question is still unanswered.
>>>
>>
>> *The simplest possible case*
>> void DDD()
>> {
>>    H0(DDD);
>> }
>>
>> *The next simplest case*
>> typedef void (*ptr)();
>> void DDD(ptr x)
>> {
>>    HH(x, x);
>> }
>>
>> *The conventional case*
>> typedef int (*ptr2)();
>> int P(ptr2 x)
>> {
>>    int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>    if (Halt_Status)
>>      HERE: goto HERE;
>>    return Halt_Status;
>> }
>>
>> I had to keep dumbing it down to make it more
>> difficult to reject out-of-hand without review.
> 
> No, this is not the simplest case. You are making it unnecessary 
> complex. The simplest case is:
> 
>         int main()
>         {
>           return H(main, 0);
>         }
> 
> No D, DD, or DDD is needed.
> For this case you proved that main halts, whereas H reports non-halting, 
> i.e. a false negative.
> This shows that in your more complex (but equivalent) cases there is 
> also a false negative.
> Of course, you prefer the more complex cases, because there you can play 
> your invalid claim that the direct execution and the simulation of 
> DDD(DDD) show different behaviour., but the simplest case shows that it 
> is not true. It is just a false negative.

_DDD()
[000020a2] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
[000020a3] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
[000020a5] 68a2200000 push 000020a2 ; push DDD
[000020aa] e8f3f9ffff call 00001aa2 ; call H0
[000020af] 83c404     add esp,+04   ; housekeeping
[000020b2] 5d         pop ebp       ; housekeeping
[000020b3] c3         ret           ; never gets here
Size in bytes:(0018) [000020b3]

Exactly which step of DDD emulated by H0 was emulated
incorrectly such that this emulation would be complete?
AKA DDD emulated by H0 reaches machine address [000020b3]



-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

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H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 11:22 -0500
  Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 12:33 -0400
    Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 16:56 -0500
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 19:01 -0400
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 18:30 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 19:37 -0400
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 19:05 -0500
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 20:13 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 19:48 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 21:19 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 20:42 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-15 21:58 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-16 11:00 +0300
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 07:48 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 13:30 -0400
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-17 10:19 +0300
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 07:57 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-18 11:01 +0300
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 07:48 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-18 19:04 +0300
  Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-16 10:53 +0300
    Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 07:47 -0500
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-16 13:30 -0400
      Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-17 10:20 +0300
        Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 08:03 -0500
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-17 18:46 -0400
          Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-18 11:03 +0300
            Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 07:57 -0500
              Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-18 19:05 +0300
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 13:55 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-19 11:36 +0300
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-19 08:44 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-06-20 08:05 +0300
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-20 00:19 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 14:04 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-19 09:58 +0200
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-19 07:58 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-19 15:46 +0200
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-19 09:55 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-19 17:39 +0200
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-19 10:46 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2024-06-19 16:29 +0000
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-19 12:07 -0500
                Re: H(D,D) cannot even be asked about the behavior of D(D) V3 ---IGNORING ALL OTHER REPLIES "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-06-20 09:53 +0200

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