Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #616814

Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2

From	Volney <volney@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2
Date	2023-08-04 15:53 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<uajkv2$1d7dr$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <d8aeee62-9445-458f-8340-7102aab745can@googlegroups.com> <c33dfe06-096c-4ba1-9b42-4277ef151da4n@googlegroups.com> <1ce0ea05-0e5a-46e7-a053-f4cd7d262f20n@googlegroups.com> <uah7sv$u91c$1@dont-email.me> <49b64420-e339-4b7a-b3b4-b8aa8a2c1d59n@googlegroups.com>

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On 8/4/2023 1:59 PM, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:57:55 PM UTC-7, Volney wrote:
>> On 8/3/2023 4:20 PM, Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 12:45:52 PM UTC-7, Paparios wrote:
>>>> El jueves, 3 de agosto de 2023 a las 15:37:02 UTC-4, Laurence Clark Crossen escribió:
>>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:28:58 AM UTC-7, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 20:22:02 UTC+2, Paparios wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> For sure that is not an official page about GPS.
>>>>>> And for sure there is nothing about "what clocks read"
>>>>>> in your quoting. All the clocks of GPS read the same time
>>>>>> scale, some seconds different from TAI. No moronic dilation
>>>>>> between them. But you're free to enchant the reality.
>>>>
>>>>> GPS would work perfectly even if relativity were unknown because they would merely adjust the clocks for the empirically determined difference. That is really what they already do.
>> No, it is not. That would mean introducing a fudge factor where GPS
>> doesn't have fudge factors. Regardless, if they did do what you say,
>> investigation into this "error" would lead to the discovery of relativity.
>>>> You are talking nonsense.
>>>> When they developed the GPS system around 1970, some of the engineers were not sure of the relativistic effects occurring at the satellite orbit. So they programmed the GPS satellite clock with two operational frequencies (10.23 MHz and 10.2299999954326 MHz)
>>>> which they were able to change from the ground. Initially, the tests were carried by using the 10.23 MHz frequency (assuming no relativity was involved). They run the system for 20 days and found that the system did no worked as intended. They changed the frequency to 10.2299999954326 MHz and the system worked as intended.
>>>> The 10.2299999954326 MHz frequency is calculated by using General Relativity.
>>
>>> If you conflate the different functioning of the clocks in orbit with a prediction from relativity of a specific amount, you are mistaken. Relativity did not predict the specific amount.
>> What, are you claiming they picked some numbers out of the air and just
>> happened to get it exactly right? They should have played the lottery
>> instead!
>>
>> No, that's not what happened. They chose 10.2299999954326 MHz because
>> that's what relativity predicts. It even says so right in the GPS specs.
>> It's easy enough to check once you know the orbital speed and altitude
>> of the satellites.
>>
>> In addition, other countries have their own GNS systems which orbit at
>> different altitudes and speeds. They would therefore have different
>> adjustments to their downlink frequencies, and relativity predicts them
>> as well. And they work.

> Relativity does not predict anything about GPS.

Yet if you plug in the numbers of the satellite's speed, altitude and 
earth's mass into the GR equations, you come up with the exact same 
number that the GPS uses. Same for other GNS systems. Are you really 
claiming that there are multiple incredible coincidences? Like winning 
the lottery jackpot 10 times in a row?

> It only pretends to.

How can it "pretend" to have the right number? Either it works or it 
doesn't. No pretending that it works if it doesn't.

> If it does, then you should be able to give the reasoning.

See the SR and GR papers as well as the Pound-Rebka experiment.

> So GR predicts that atomic clocks run faster in lower gravity?

GR predicts there will be a measurable difference between clocks at 
different levels of gravitation as seen by each other. This is caused by 
gravity's GR effect on the signals used to communicate. For example the 
downlink from a satellite to an earth receiver perceives a difference 
due to gravity's effects on the RF signals, shifting them from a 
transmitted frequency of 10.2299999954326 MHz to a received frequency of 
10.23 MHz.

> It does not predict that sand clocks and pendulum clocks run faster

Stop right there. These clocks use the earth as part of their operation. 
A pendulum clock in deep space won't measure time at all. A pendulum 
clock on the moon will run at a very different rate. To make a fair 
comparison you MUST use clocks that don't use gravity as part of their 
mechanism. Atomic clocks for example.
[snip irrelevancy]

Thread

Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-02 00:49 -0700
  Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-02 13:56 -0700
    Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2023-08-02 15:03 -0700
      Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-02 15:08 -0700
      Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-02 15:17 -0700
      Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-02 16:16 -0700
        Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 billv <billv@nowhere.void.net> - 2023-08-02 19:12 -0500
      Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-02 23:29 -0700
        Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2023-08-03 06:05 -0700
          Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 06:46 -0700
            Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2023-08-03 08:17 -0700
              Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 10:39 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2023-08-03 11:21 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 11:28 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-03 12:37 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2023-08-03 12:45 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 13:15 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-03 13:20 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 13:44 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2023-08-03 13:46 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 20:20 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-03 17:57 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 20:21 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-03 20:51 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-04 13:27 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-03 21:18 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 23:17 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 23:48 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-04 11:05 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-04 11:47 -0500
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 10:06 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-04 10:59 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-04 15:53 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 12:56 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-04 13:07 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-04 22:54 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-04 22:46 -0500
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-05 10:28 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Vidal Barabashev <dlva@vvhivdbs.ab> - 2023-08-05 17:50 +0000
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-04 10:53 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2023-08-04 11:54 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-04 13:01 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-04 22:59 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-04 13:43 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-04 11:12 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-04 15:41 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 12:52 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-04 13:03 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-04 23:28 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 21:42 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-05 15:02 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-05 12:58 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-05 19:20 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-05 16:54 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-05 18:14 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-05 23:24 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-05 21:42 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-06 21:22 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-06 22:35 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Dillan Novoselitsky <doik@olokkeol.la> - 2023-08-07 09:04 +0000
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-06 11:14 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-06 16:55 -0500
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-06 15:05 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-06 17:51 -0500
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-06 16:23 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-06 19:17 -0500
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-06 17:20 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-08-06 19:52 -0500
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-06 22:02 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-06 11:45 +0200
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-08-06 10:35 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-05 21:41 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-06 11:45 +0200
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-05 10:51 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Murel Bah <ulhm@eaamemaa.ml> - 2023-08-05 18:10 +0000
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Liod Shakhtmeister <adlh@emlhsdha.os> - 2023-08-07 08:10 +0000
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-05 14:50 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2023-08-04 22:32 +0200
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-06 13:53 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-06 14:40 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-06 15:24 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-06 15:28 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2023-08-06 15:30 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-07 11:53 -0400
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-07 10:54 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-06 16:21 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-06 16:44 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-06 16:48 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2023-08-03 12:37 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 13:11 -0700
              Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-03 10:40 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-03 10:48 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2023-08-03 11:24 -0700
                Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-03 12:37 -0700
    Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 billv <billv@nowhere.void.net> - 2023-08-02 18:20 -0500
      Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2023-08-02 17:54 -0700
        Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 billv <billv@nowhere.void.net> - 2023-08-02 22:23 -0500
        Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-03 10:34 -0700
      Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-02 23:31 -0700
    Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-02 23:27 -0700
  Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Laurence Clark Crossen <l.c.crossen@hotmail.com> - 2023-08-02 14:26 -0700
  Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2023-08-03 07:54 +0200
  Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 04:18 -0700
    Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 05:08 -0700
      Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Ken Seto <setoken47@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 07:11 -0700
        Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-08-04 08:32 -0700
          Re: Time as "what clocks indicate" - part 2 Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-08-04 12:26 -0400

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