Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main

From	Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.project
Subject	Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main
Date	2017-12-07 15:50 +0100
Message-ID	<uU5ER-7pp-7@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <uU3Wq-6ft-9@gated-at.bofh.it> <uU465-6yV-11@gated-at.bofh.it> <uU4z7-6Kg-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <uU4St-6QS-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <uU4St-6QS-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	linux.* mail to news gateway

Show all headers | View raw

On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 01:59:16PM +0000, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 01:52:07PM +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > Furthermore, this "file is dangerous" attribute ought to be copied
> > much more.
> 
> no, it ought to be the default. all files should be considered harmful,
> unless tagged otherwise.

All files _should_ be considered potentially harmful. Even if tagged
safe. A previously-safe file might become harmful because it happens
to trigger a newly found security bug. Possibly a newly found security
bug that did not exist when the file was tagged safe.

In my opinion, tagging files safe or harmful is not a winning
strategy. I don't think it gives enough benefit to be worth it, and it
doesn't seem to me it actually protects our users very much. An xattrs
tag, in particular, gets lost so very easily, and having it applied
inconsistently means there's a lot of ways in which any protection
based on such a tag gets accidentally or intentionally circumvented.
If we have a "this is safe" tag, instead of "this may be harmful",
then that's also going to get lost often, leading to users getting
annoyed by unintended security warnings all the time.

Obviously it's possible to handle this by treating it as a by every
time a file is copied without its xattr flag. But even from limited
experience, that's going to be a very large number of bugs. If my
security depends on all programs individually doing all the right
things, I won't be feeling very secure.

I don't have a good solution, but I suspect something like QubesOS may
be the way forward. In other worse, isolate all processes into
containers (or virtual machines) of some sort and arrange it so that
this doesn't become too cumbersome to the user. (Disclaimer: I haven't
had time to actually try QubesOS myself, yet.)

The advantage of that approach is that the security gets centralised
into fewer system components. It's less important that, say, Firefox
is secure, if it can't be exploited to do bad things, if the container
stops Firefox from deleting or modifying local files, or making
unexpected network connections, or using too much RAM or CPU or other
local resources. (I'm describing an ideal here, not the state of
current technology.)

-- 
I want to build worthwhile things that might last. --joeyh

Thread

Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-11-30 15:00 +0100
  Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-12-01 15:00 +0100
    Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2017-12-01 16:30 +0100
      Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2017-12-01 16:40 +0100
        Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2017-12-01 17:20 +0100
          Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-12-01 17:30 +0100
        Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-12-01 17:20 +0100
      Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2017-12-01 19:10 +0100
    Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2017-12-01 18:20 +0100
      Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-12-01 18:30 +0100
      Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2017-12-01 19:10 +0100
        Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2017-12-01 20:10 +0100
        Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2017-12-03 12:10 +0100
  Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> - 2017-12-03 09:00 +0100
  Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-12-05 21:50 +0100
    Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2017-12-06 05:10 +0100
      Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> - 2017-12-06 07:50 +0100
        Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-12-07 00:40 +0100
          Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> - 2017-12-07 01:10 +0100
            Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2017-12-07 01:20 +0100
              Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> - 2017-12-07 02:40 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2017-12-07 03:30 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Mike Hommey <mh@glandium.org> - 2017-12-07 04:20 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2017-12-07 07:10 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-12-07 07:20 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2017-12-07 14:00 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2017-12-07 14:10 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2017-12-07 14:20 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main "Paul R. Tagliamonte" <paultag@gmail.com> - 2017-12-07 14:40 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-12-07 15:00 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2017-12-07 15:00 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi> - 2017-12-07 15:50 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main "Paul R. Tagliamonte" <paultag@gmail.com> - 2017-12-07 15:20 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-12-07 17:10 +0100
                technical terms (Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by  stuff in main) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2017-12-07 18:00 +0100
                technical terms (Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by  stuff in main) Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-12-07 18:30 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> - 2017-12-07 18:30 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main "Paul R. Tagliamonte" <paultag@gmail.com> - 2017-12-07 18:40 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-12-07 19:40 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2017-12-07 22:10 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-12-07 23:00 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main "Paul R. Tagliamonte" <paultag@gmail.com> - 2017-12-07 23:10 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2017-12-07 19:30 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-12-07 20:10 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2017-12-07 20:30 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-12-07 21:10 +0100
                Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2017-12-07 14:00 +0100
    Automatically marking downloaded files (was Re: Automatic downloading  of non-free software by stuff in main) Anthony DeRobertis <anthony@derobert.net> - 2017-12-06 06:30 +0100
      Re: Automatically marking downloaded files (was Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main) Stuart Prescott <stuart@debian.org> - 2017-12-07 02:40 +0100
        Re: Automatically marking downloaded files (was Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main) Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-12-07 15:00 +0100

csiph-web