Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not

From	David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.user
Subject	Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not
Date	2017-03-16 18:10 +0100
Message-ID	<tlH4t-1sh-3@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <tlnIt-4nV-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <tlugV-Cf-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <tlC4N-684-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <tlDax-6Wl-13@gated-at.bofh.it> <tlDke-7g2-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
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On Thu 16 Mar 2017 at 14:05:17 (+0100), tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 12:52:00PM +0000, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> > Brian:
> > 
> > > Documentation dispels ignorance. Dispelling ignorance requires the
> > > co-operation of the user.
> 
> :-)
> 
> > To recapitulate, the purpose of the list as I understand it is not to
> > answer practical problems with "read the manual".  It defeats the purpose.
> 
> I think you're being a bit unfair here. Brian has surely done a bit
> beyond saying "read the manual". He has provided leads to the relevant
> spots in there.

He showed a much better path to the important web page
http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/i386/iso-cd/
He hasn't disagreed with my analysis of why people can get
stuck on another pathway to the ISO files on that page,
particularly the people desiring a network installation.

But the Installation Manual comment, particularly the rhetorical
question, was a cheap shot IMO. Navigating these pages should be
straightforward. Any indication that the Installation Manual
is going to help that navigation, or should help, is laughable
and contradicts the very raison d'être of the web.

> As a user, I'd perhaps wished for a friendlier tone, but hey.
> 
> And mentioning the docs & reminding people that "yes, folks, it's
> there, look..." is *helpful*, because it helps people finding things
> next time.
> 
> As a case in point, I remember how I felt the first time I had a
> look at rsync's (or find's) man page. "O $DEITY! So much stuff, I
> don't find anything". Nowadays I couldn't do without.
> 
> That's why, when someone pops up here with a thing and I can help
> at all, I try to say, but also to show *where* in the docs. It's
> not nitpickery, but helping people help themselves (and ultimately,
> help others). I see that in Brian's attempts too (Brian: am I
> reading too much in your mails?)

So let's turn to the Installation Manual/Guide. Let's assume that
you read it cover to cover but not everything went in. So then you
go to Chapter 4 to get your media. You're using the internet, so
you go to 4.2/4.2.1 as the most promising headings. Click on
the images link. Doesn't look promising, so go back and click on
Manifest link. Ah, hd-media for use on USB memory sticks, good.
Go back to the images link and click on hd-media.
All I see is files. To use them, I've got to search the Guide for
their names. (Easier with the PDF than the web pages, ironically.)

One hopes, at this point, that you take a look at the next section,
Preparing Files for USB Memory Stick Booting, where it implies
that you can't do what you want to do without already having a
linux system up and running. (Is that true? I don't know.)

Skipping that, 4.3.1 will send you back to 4.1, a section you
didn't look at because it was headed Official Debian GNU/Linux
CD/DVD-ROM Sets, and you didn't want a set of anything.

I think part of the problem of finding one's way around is that
once there were floppies (was it 4 for buzz?), which morphed
into CDs (7 for woody?), and when USB sticks came along, the
extra instructions were just added into the existing structure,
whereas it merits a redesign IMO.

Before posting this, I just saw Steve's post which is most
encouraging. I shall scurry to bug 819664, but fully understand
pressures of time. Don't read all the above as criticism of
Debian, it's not meant to be; more that pointedly pointing at
the Installation Manual link on the home page is not a very
constructive act.

Cheers,
David.

Thread

Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Dean Valentine <deanvalentine@lhsla.org> - 2017-03-15 06:20 +0100
  Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Johann Spies <johann.spies@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 07:00 +0100
    Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Tim Ye <tim.ye0@aliyun.com> - 2017-03-15 10:10 +0100
      Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Davor Balder <davor@cropakglobal.com> - 2017-03-15 10:30 +0100
      Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Dean Valentine <deanvalentine@lhsla.org> - 2017-03-15 16:10 +0100
        Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Pete Orrall <pete@cs1x.com> - 2017-03-15 16:50 +0100
          Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Dean Valentine <deanvalentine@lhsla.org> - 2017-03-16 05:30 +0100
            Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-16 15:10 +0100
        Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Peter Hillier-Brook <phb@hbsys.plus.com> - 2017-03-15 17:10 +0100
          Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 18:30 +0100
            Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Pete Orrall <pete@cs1x.com> - 2017-03-15 19:50 +0100
              Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-15 20:30 +0100
                Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 21:30 +0100
            Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-15 19:50 +0100
              Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-15 21:30 +0100
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-16 02:30 +0100
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2017-03-16 16:20 +0100
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-03-16 04:30 +0100
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-16 12:50 +0100
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-03-16 14:00 +0100
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-03-16 14:10 +0100
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-16 18:10 +0100
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-16 21:30 +0100
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 17:00 +0100
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 20:20 +0100
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not cbannister@slingshot.co.nz - 2017-04-01 15:00 +0200
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-04-01 15:40 +0200
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-04-01 21:50 +0200
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-17 18:10 +0100
                Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu,  Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 21:40 +0100
        Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Davor Balder <davor@cropakglobal.com> - 2017-03-16 04:20 +0100
          Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> - 2017-03-16 04:30 +0100
            Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-16 04:40 +0100
              Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Carl Fink <carl@finknetwork.com> - 2017-03-16 14:50 +0100
  Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 07:50 +0100
    Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi,  debian does not Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 21:00 +0200
      Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 21:30 +0200

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