Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485
Date	2022-11-06 21:53 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<tk96t7$3abv7$2@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(12 earlier) <55844769-5be7-47e9-b849-396e655188abn@googlegroups.com> <tk6bmk$2k36a$3@dont-email.me> <608a7c08-1447-4483-89bc-38b9a6e6d4ean@googlegroups.com> <tk83ql$32rij$1@dont-email.me> <0f5f3759-7ecc-4ed4-9501-60fba54a7d48n@googlegroups.com>

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On 06/11/2022 14:56, Rick C wrote:
> On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 5:55:22 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
>> On 05/11/2022 21:42, Rick C wrote:
>>> On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 2:57:30 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>>>> On 05/11/2022 18:23, Rick C wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 7:47:59 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>>
>>>> The USB device is /not/ a processor - it is a converter between USB and
>>>> UART. And it is the USB device that controls the transmit enable signal
>>>> to the RS-485/RS-422 driver. There is no software on any processor
>>>> handling the transmit enable signal - the driver is enabled precisely
>>>> when the USB to UART device is sending data on the UART.
>>>
>>> Actually, the FTDI device is a processor. I expect it actually has no UART, rather the entire thing is done in software. I recall there being code to download for various purposes, such as JTAG, but I forget the details. I'm pretty sure the TxEn is controlled by FTDI software.
>>>
>> No, I think you are mixing things up. FTDI make a fair number of
>> devices, including some that /are/ processors or contain processors.
>> (That would their display controller devices, their USB host
>> controllers, amongst others.)
>>
>> The code for using chips like the FT232H as a JTAG interface runs on the
>> host PC, not FTDI chip - it is a DLL or so file (or OpenOCD, or other
>> software). The chip has /hardware/ support for a few different serial
>> interfaces - SPI, I²C, JTAG and UART.
> 
> They need code for the PC to run, but there is no reason to think they don't use a processor in the USB dongle.
> 

There is no reason to think that they /do/ have a processor there.  I 
should imagine you would have no problem making the programmable logic 
needed for controlling a UART/SPI/I²C/JTAG/GPIO port, and USB slave 
devices are rarely made in software (even on the XMOS they prefer 
hardware blocks for USB).  Why would anyone use a /processor/ for some 
simple digital hardware?  I am not privy to the details of the FTDI 
design beyond their published documents, but it seems pretty clear to me 
that there is no processor in sight.

> 
>>>> As I mentioned earlier, this thread is getting seriously mixed-up. The
>>>> transmit enable discussion started with /RS-485/ - long before you
>>>> decided to use a hybrid bus and a RS-422 cable. You were concerned
>>>> about how the PC controlled the transmitter enable for the RS-485
>>>> driver, and I have been trying to explain how this works when you use a
>>>> decent UART device. You only confuse yourself when you jump to
>>>> discussing RS-422 here, in this bit of the conversation.
>>>
>>> Ok, I'll stop talking about what I am doing.
>>>
>> We don't need to stop talking about it - we (everyone) just need to be a
>> bit clearer about the context. It's been fun to talk about, and its
>> great that you have a solution you are happy with, but it's a shame if
>> topic mixup leads to frustration.
>>>> All communications have failures. Accept that as a principle, and
>>>> understand how to deal with it. It's not hard to do - it is certainly
>>>> much easier than trying to imagine and eliminate any possible cause of
>>>> trouble.
>>>
>>> That's not a premise I have to deal with. I will also die. I'm not factoring that into the project either.
>>>
>>> I don't need to eliminate "any possible cause of trouble". I only have to reach an effective level of reliability. As I've said, error handling protocols are complex and subject to failure. It's much more likely I will have more trouble with the error handling protocol than I will with bit errors on the bus. So I choose the most reliable solution, no error handling. So without an error handling protocol in the software, I don't need to do anything further to deal with errors.
>>>
>> I agree that error handling procedures can be difficult - and very
>> often, they are poorly tested and have their own bugs (hardware or
>> software). Over-engineering can reduce overall reliability, rather than
>> increase it. (A few years back, we had a project that had to be updated
>> to SIL safety certification requirements. Most of the changes reduced
>> the overall safety and reliability in order to fulfil the documentation
>> and certification requirements.)
>>
>> For serial protocols, ensuring a brief pause between telegrams is
>> extremely simple and makes recovery possible after many kinds of errors.
>> That's why it is found in virtually every serial protocol in wide use.
>> And like it or not, you have it already in your hybrid bus solution.
> 
> There's no point to inter-message delays.  If there is an error that causes a loss of framing, the devices will see that and ignore the message.  As I've said, the real issue is that the message will not be responded to, and the software will fail.  At that point the user will exit the software on the PC and start over.  That gives a nice long delay for resyncing.
> 

That is one way to handle possible errors.

Thread

Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-01 22:28 -0700
  Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-02 10:28 +0100
    Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2022-11-02 11:54 +0100
      Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-02 14:27 +0100
    Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-02 12:20 -0700
      Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-02 21:49 +0100
        Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-02 16:27 -0700
          Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-03 12:42 +0100
            Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 14:00 +0100
              Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-03 16:26 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2022-11-04 08:45 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-04 10:49 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2022-11-04 15:37 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-04 17:36 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-04 10:11 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-05 11:58 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-05 09:55 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Stef <me@this.is.invalid> - 2022-11-07 11:00 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-07 15:46 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 08:05 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-11-07 19:02 -0500
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 17:15 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-11-08 06:54 -0500
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-08 05:50 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Clifford Heath <no_spam@please.net> - 2022-11-09 10:45 +1100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-08 16:46 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Clifford Heath <no_spam@please.net> - 2022-11-09 22:32 +1100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-09 04:53 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-11-09 23:45 -0500
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-09 21:42 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-04 08:40 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2022-11-04 22:53 +0000
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-04 18:07 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2022-11-05 03:46 +0000
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-05 02:09 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Stef <me@this.is.invalid> - 2022-11-07 10:40 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-05 12:47 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-05 10:23 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-05 19:57 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-05 13:42 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-06 11:55 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-06 05:56 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-06 21:53 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 01:58 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Stef <me@this.is.invalid> - 2022-11-07 11:26 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 02:39 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Stef <me@this.is.invalid> - 2022-11-07 12:07 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 08:25 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Stef <me@this.is.invalid> - 2022-11-07 17:57 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 09:50 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Stef <me@this.is.invalid> - 2022-11-07 21:30 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 14:27 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Stef <me@this.is.invalid> - 2022-11-08 00:07 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 16:50 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-08 09:02 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-11-08 06:58 -0500
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-11-06 18:34 -0500
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-11-06 15:37 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-11-06 19:18 -0500
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 02:07 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 02:03 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Stef <me@this.is.invalid> - 2022-11-07 11:55 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 08:18 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Stef <me@this.is.invalid> - 2022-11-07 18:20 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 10:26 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Stef <me@this.is.invalid> - 2022-11-07 22:04 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 14:54 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-11-07 15:14 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 16:57 -0800
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-07 07:51 -0800
              Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 08:29 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-11-03 10:36 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 12:32 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-11-03 13:08 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 13:40 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-11-03 16:50 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 21:10 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-04 11:13 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-04 08:52 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-11-04 20:03 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-05 17:25 +0100
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-04 11:01 +0100
  Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-11-02 15:00 -0700
    Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-02 16:31 -0700
      Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-11-02 17:36 -0700
        Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-02 21:58 -0700
          Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-11-03 09:57 -0700
            Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 12:02 -0700
              Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-11-03 12:53 -0700
                Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 13:33 -0700
  Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Dave Nadler <drn@nadler.com> - 2022-11-03 15:37 -0400
    Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 13:32 -0700
      Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-11-04 22:47 -0400
  Re: Shared Communications Bus - RS-422 or RS-485 chris <chris-nospam@tridac.net> - 2022-11-05 00:13 +0000

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