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Groups > comp.lang.c++ > #84514

Re: Wikipedia

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: Wikipedia
Date 2022-06-03 20:33 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <t7dk53$rim$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (13 earlier) <b16ae9d5-a5e0-4e50-8a6a-406b3f3385f4n@googlegroups.com> <t7d7eg$14m7$1@gioia.aioe.org> <6f7f4e1a-e000-4b70-848f-7f9ab3d7347en@googlegroups.com> <t7d9dv$19u$1@dont-email.me> <7a1b9373-edbe-45ad-b765-61c25bf740dcn@googlegroups.com>

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On 03/06/2022 19:37, daniel...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 11:30:24 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> 
>> Like Juha, I believe the Guidelines should be changed to recommend 
>> avoiding file scope "using namespace std;" in most (but not necessarily 
>> all) circumstances. But I'd rather they had a clear stance /for/ using 
>> it, than the current lack of clarity.
> 
> Actually, they provide a very clear rationale /for/ using it: "sometimes a 
> namespace is so fundamental and prevalent in a code base, that consistent 
> qualification would be verbose and distracting." _You_ may not agree
> with that rationale, Juha might not, I might not, but it's in the text.

I'm sorry, but you are taking that out of context and extrapolating it.
 The quotation is in a section titled "Use using namespace directives
for transition, for foundation libraries (such as std), or within a
local scope (only)".  No one is arguing that "using namespace"
directives do not have their place and their use.

The question under discussion is solely about the use of "using
namespace std;" at file scope.  And here the Guidelines mention it as a
possibility when "the standard is used pervasively and apparently no
other library is used", and they also mention some of the risk of name
clashes.  They also make the valid point that a cpp file itself is a
scope, and it is reasonable to view a using directive at file scope as
similar to a using directive inside a function of the same length.  (Of
course, in reality files are usually a good deal longer than you'd want
a single function to be.)

> 
>  They also provide an example of "good" coding style that has 
> "using namespace std" at file scope. Now, you can say that examples
> take shortcuts to convey an essence. And that's true, but what is the
> essence that _these_ examples are intended to convey? Surely it is
> _good coding style_.

No.  We've been through this - is there any point in repeating it?  If
you are still in doubt, read the introduction to the Guidelines where it
says "Examples are not intended to be production quality or to cover all
tutorial dimensions".  And they specifically say they skip the "std::"
in the examples - with /no/ implication that this is considered "good
coding style".

Again, I'd be a lot happier if the Guidelines made this clear.  If they
really do think global "using namespace std;" is good coding style, I'd
like them to say so explicitly.


> 
> Finally, they mention name clashes as a possible issue, but go on to say:
> "However, [a name clash] is not particularly likely to lead to a resolution 
> that is not an error and people who use using namespace std are supposed 
> to know about std and about this risk." _You_ may think that the 
> risk of a name clash is too big of a risk to take, but Stroustrup and
> Sutter don't seem to think so. 

They say it is a risk - they don't say if they recommend taking the risk
or not.  And they miss completely the fact that clashes may occur with
future standards but not the ones you might have used when developing
the code.  That is a significant missing point.

> And as far as I can tell, they mention 
> no other issue with "using namespace std" when used at local scope, 
> including in a cpp file.
> 
> David can't seem to separate what he thinks from what the Guidelines
> say. That's evident in all of his comments. I fear I'm repeating myself :-)
> but so is everybody else.
> 

There are many people here who seem convinced they know what the
Guidelines are saying - I am saying that it is not at all clear what the
Guidelines are saying in regard to file scope "using namespace std;".  I
am perfectly capable of distinguishing this ambiguous message in the
Guidelines from my own personal preferences in regard to the "using"
declaration.

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Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 02:59 +0200
  Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-29 05:46 +0000
    Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 08:03 +0200
      Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 08:34 +0200
      Re: Wikipedia Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-05-29 01:36 -0700
        Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 10:37 +0200
          Re: Wikipedia Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-05-29 02:09 -0700
            Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 11:16 +0200
              Re: Wikipedia Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-05-29 03:08 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 12:44 +0200
              Re: Wikipedia Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-05-29 16:05 +0300
                Re: Wikipedia Freethinker <freethinker@mymail.com> - 2022-05-29 15:19 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 15:27 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2022-05-29 17:26 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 19:18 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-05-29 17:49 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-05-30 00:25 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2022-06-04 13:00 -0400
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-04 19:19 +0200
            Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 11:48 +0200
          Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-30 06:06 +0000
            Re: Wikipedia Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2022-06-04 13:02 -0400
    Re: Wikipedia Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2022-05-29 17:18 +0100
      Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 18:22 +0200
        Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-30 06:08 +0000
          Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-31 04:41 +0200
      Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-30 06:06 +0000
  Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-30 19:31 +0100
  Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-30 19:52 +0100
    Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-05-31 14:34 +0200
      Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-31 15:15 +0200
        Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-31 18:00 +0100
          Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-31 19:06 +0200
            Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-31 18:43 +0100
              Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-31 19:48 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 09:26 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 09:44 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-06-01 01:47 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 13:53 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 17:05 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 17:06 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-02 04:57 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 07:43 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-02 08:53 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 12:56 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-02 12:46 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 14:56 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:14 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 06:19 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:26 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-06-03 14:22 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 15:34 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 07:24 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 14:56 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 08:06 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-03 17:30 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 10:37 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-03 20:33 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-06-03 18:59 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 12:35 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Freethinker <freethinker@mymail.com> - 2022-06-03 23:42 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-06-04 08:10 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 11:59 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-04 15:27 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-04 15:31 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-06-03 17:02 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 08:11 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 14:23 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 14:58 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-06-04 08:00 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-02 16:00 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 16:09 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 16:14 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2022-06-04 13:20 -0400
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-04 19:23 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 04:40 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 14:00 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-02 12:47 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 14:59 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:17 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 06:20 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:27 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-02 16:13 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 10:09 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-02 22:35 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:22 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 06:23 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:28 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 06:35 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 05:22 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 07:23 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 22:25 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 07:28 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 22:31 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 06:22 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 08:38 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 10:14 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 06:32 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 15:35 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 14:12 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-03 10:31 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-06-02 19:12 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2022-06-04 13:09 -0400
                Re: Wikipedia Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2022-06-02 17:54 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-06-02 20:40 +0300
                Re: Wikipedia Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2022-06-02 18:50 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:25 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 14:21 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 06:17 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 15:34 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 07:13 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 16:55 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 16:29 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 16:56 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 07:58 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 17:07 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 17:50 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 18:11 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 17:41 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-06-01 17:42 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 09:12 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-06-01 18:35 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 18:36 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-06-01 18:59 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 19:04 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 10:04 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-06-07 08:28 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 21:22 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 13:43 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-02 10:07 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-06-07 08:21 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 07:18 -0700
              Re: Wikipedia muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-31 18:34 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-31 19:37 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-31 18:42 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-31 20:00 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-31 19:19 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-31 20:28 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-06-01 18:07 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 20:28 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-05-31 19:37 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-05-31 21:27 +0100
                Re: "std::" (was: Wikipedia) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-31 21:17 +0100
                Re: "std::" (was: Wikipedia) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 06:33 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 09:34 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 05:40 +0200
      Re: Wikipedia Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2022-05-31 17:18 +0100
        Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-31 18:25 +0200
          Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 09:38 +0200
            Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 09:46 +0200
              Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 10:16 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 10:21 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 17:13 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 17:15 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 18:12 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 18:18 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 18:39 +0200

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