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Groups > comp.lang.c++ > #84437

Re: Wikipedia

From Manfred <noname@add.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: Wikipedia
Date 2022-06-01 17:42 +0200
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <t781e0$nbh$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References (7 earlier) <t75kc4$emq$1@dont-email.me> <t774b9$9r0$1@dont-email.me> <t775db$vp6$1@dont-email.me> <t77t3e$33m$1@dont-email.me> <ae3e0864-f7fb-497d-b3a9-225ed3f264a1n@googlegroups.com>

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On 6/1/2022 4:58 PM, daniel...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 10:29:18 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> 
>> And please don't use silly claims of "mental  problems".
> 
> Agreed
> 
>> (Yes, I know others have stopped to that level too - that
>> does not mean it is helpful or appropriate for you to do so also.)
> 
> It's almost a trademark of this forum, regrettably.
> 
>> And no, the C++ Core Guidelines do /not/ encourage the use of "using
>> namespace std;".
> 
> They certainly give it their blessing, from the Guidelines

Put this way, I find it hard to believe, please give exact reference of 
the example below.

> 
> Example, good
> #include <iostream>
> #include <string>
> using namespace std;
> 
> void use()
> {
>      // snipped
> }
> 
>> When in doubt,  do not use "using namespace std;" at file scope.
> 
> Actually, the C++ Core Guidelines specifically state that a ".cpp file
> is a form of local scope",  and they appear to have no issue with
>   "using namespace std;" in this context. They mention that
> "sometimes a namespace is so fundamental and prevalent in a code base,
> that consistent qualification would be verbose and distracting", and
> they're clearly referring to "std". They bring up the risk of name clashes,
> but suggest it is a manageable risk.

You should stop extrapolating your conclusions from pieces of sentences 
extrapolated from context.

SF.6 (thanks to David for giving this accurate reference) clearly states 
its intent from the very beginning, i.e. its title:

"SF.6: Use using namespace directives for transition, for foundation 
libraries (such as std), or within a local scope (only)"

Now, instead of giving their blessing to the use of "using namespace 
std;" (actually, using directives in general, not only std), the authors 
clearly give /constraints/ on where it is allowed to use this construct: 
note the (only) part in that title.
This is very different from what you say.

In particular, they give a motivation for this directive for the 
following reasons:

1) "transition". This means help dealing with legacy code, not at all an 
endorsement to use it with new code.

2) "foundation libraries (such as std)". This is probably the more 
important part: it means that *if* you are writing a standard library 
implementation, then you'd better have "using namespace std;" in your 
.cpp files, since most if not all of what you are writing lives within 
the std namespace(!)

3) "local scope". This is the handle you are trying to hold so tight on 
to. In fact, it means that in a limited and controlled scope, you may 
use a using directive. This still is in the perspective of containing 
namespaces to avoid clashes, but instead of controlling the imported 
namespace (std), you make the choice of controlling your own namespace, 
by keeping it small.
Again, this is very different from a generic "blessing" to using 
namespace std; everywhere.

About the note "A .cpp file is a form of local scope": here too you 
should read beyond the first dozen of letters. If you read the note in 
full, you'd see that it is in fact about how large is the scope in which 
you are injecting the std namespace: it explains that it is the N-line 
count that matters, whether it be a single function or a combined set of 
multiple functions "with N lines of code in total". It does not 
contradict, but instead it clearly applies to, the choice of having your 
own namespace small.

Back to the OP, the code that Bonita posted on Wikipedia is clearly 
larger than a handful of lines, and anyway it may be meant to be 
integrated in a larger program. "using namespace std;" is still a poor 
choice, even in the light of the C++ core guidelines.

> 
> You can of course disagree with that judgement, but then you're
> also disagreeing with Stroustrup and Sutter, not just Bonita.

No, we are not disagreeing with Stroustrup and Sutter. On the other 
hand, it appears that it is you and Bonita who do not understand 
properly what they wrote.

> 
> Best regards,
> Daniel

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Thread

Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 02:59 +0200
  Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-29 05:46 +0000
    Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 08:03 +0200
      Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 08:34 +0200
      Re: Wikipedia Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-05-29 01:36 -0700
        Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 10:37 +0200
          Re: Wikipedia Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-05-29 02:09 -0700
            Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 11:16 +0200
              Re: Wikipedia Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-05-29 03:08 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 12:44 +0200
              Re: Wikipedia Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-05-29 16:05 +0300
                Re: Wikipedia Freethinker <freethinker@mymail.com> - 2022-05-29 15:19 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 15:27 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2022-05-29 17:26 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 19:18 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-05-29 17:49 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-05-30 00:25 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2022-06-04 13:00 -0400
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-04 19:19 +0200
            Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 11:48 +0200
          Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-30 06:06 +0000
            Re: Wikipedia Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2022-06-04 13:02 -0400
    Re: Wikipedia Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2022-05-29 17:18 +0100
      Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-29 18:22 +0200
        Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-30 06:08 +0000
          Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-31 04:41 +0200
      Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-30 06:06 +0000
  Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-30 19:31 +0100
  Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-30 19:52 +0100
    Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-05-31 14:34 +0200
      Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-31 15:15 +0200
        Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-31 18:00 +0100
          Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-31 19:06 +0200
            Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-31 18:43 +0100
              Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-31 19:48 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 09:26 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 09:44 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-06-01 01:47 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 13:53 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 17:05 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 17:06 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-02 04:57 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 07:43 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-02 08:53 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 12:56 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-02 12:46 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 14:56 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:14 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 06:19 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:26 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-06-03 14:22 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 15:34 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 07:24 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 14:56 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 08:06 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-03 17:30 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 10:37 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-03 20:33 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-06-03 18:59 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 12:35 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Freethinker <freethinker@mymail.com> - 2022-06-03 23:42 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-06-04 08:10 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 11:59 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-04 15:27 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-04 15:31 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-06-03 17:02 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 08:11 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 14:23 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 14:58 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-06-04 08:00 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-02 16:00 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 16:09 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 16:14 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2022-06-04 13:20 -0400
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-04 19:23 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 04:40 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 14:00 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-02 12:47 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 14:59 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:17 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 06:20 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:27 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-02 16:13 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 10:09 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-02 22:35 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:22 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 06:23 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:28 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 06:35 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 05:22 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 07:23 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 22:25 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 07:28 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-06-02 22:31 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 06:22 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 08:38 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 10:14 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 06:32 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 15:35 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-06-03 14:12 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-03 10:31 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-06-02 19:12 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2022-06-04 13:09 -0400
                Re: Wikipedia Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2022-06-02 17:54 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-06-02 20:40 +0300
                Re: Wikipedia Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2022-06-02 18:50 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-06-03 04:25 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 14:21 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 06:17 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 15:34 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 07:13 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 16:55 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 16:29 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 16:56 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 07:58 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 17:07 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 17:50 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 18:11 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 17:41 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-06-01 17:42 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 09:12 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-06-01 18:35 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 18:36 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-06-01 18:59 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 19:04 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 10:04 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-06-07 08:28 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 21:22 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 13:43 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-02 10:07 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-06-07 08:21 -0700
                Re: Wikipedia "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-06-10 07:18 -0700
              Re: Wikipedia muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-31 18:34 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-31 19:37 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-31 18:42 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-31 20:00 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-31 19:19 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-31 20:28 +0100
                Re: Wikipedia muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-06-01 18:07 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 20:28 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-05-31 19:37 +0000
                Re: Wikipedia Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-05-31 21:27 +0100
                Re: "std::" (was: Wikipedia) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2022-05-31 21:17 +0100
                Re: "std::" (was: Wikipedia) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 06:33 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 09:34 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 05:40 +0200
      Re: Wikipedia Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2022-05-31 17:18 +0100
        Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-05-31 18:25 +0200
          Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 09:38 +0200
            Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 09:46 +0200
              Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 10:16 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 10:21 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 17:13 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 17:15 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-06-01 18:12 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 18:18 +0200
                Re: Wikipedia Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 18:39 +0200

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