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Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on

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On 10/25/2021 1:52 AM, Niklas Holsti wrote:
> On 2021-10-25 11:19, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/25/2021 12:56 AM, Niklas Holsti wrote:
>>> On 2021-10-25 0:08, Don Y wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are (and have been) many "safer" languages.  Many that are more
>>>> descriptive (for certain classes of problem).  But, C has survived to
>>>> handle all-of-the-above... perhaps in a suboptimal way but at least
>>>> a manner that can get to the desired solution.
>>>>
>>>> Look at how few applications SNOBOL handles.  Write an OS in COBOL? Ada?
>>>
>>> I don't know about COBOL, but typically the real-time kernels ("run-time 
>>> systems") associated with Ada compilers for bare-board embedded systems are 
>>> written in Ada, with a minor amount of assembly language for the most 
>>> HW-related bits like HW context saving and restoring. I'm pretty sure that 
>>> C-language OS kernels also use assembly for those things.
>>
>> Of course you *can* do these things.
> 
> Then I misunderstood your (rhetorical?) question.
> 
>> The question is how often
>> they are ACTUALLY done with these other languages.
> 
> I don't find that question very interesting.

Why not?  If a tool isn't used for a purpose for which it *should*
be "ideal", you have to start wondering "why not?"  Was it NOT
suited to the task?  Was it too costly (money and/or experience)?
How do we not repeat that problem, going forward?  I.e., is it
better to EVOLVE a language to acquire the characteristics of the
"better" one -- rather than trying to encourage people to
"jump ship"?

> It is a typical chicken-and-egg, first-to-market conundrum. There is an 
> enormous amount of status-quo-favouring friction in awareness, education, tool 
> availability, and legacy code.

Of course!

And, there is also the pressure of the market.  Do *you* want to be The Guy
who tries something new and sinks a product's development or market release?
If your approach proves to be a big hit, will you benefit as much as you'd
LOSE if it was a flop?

>> [By the same token, expecting the past to mirror the present is equally
>> naive.  People forget that tools and processes have evolved (in the 40+
>> years that I've been designing embedded products).  And, that the isssues
>> folks now face often weren't issues when tools were "stupider" (I've
>> probably got $60K of obsolete compilers to prove this -- anyone written
>> any C on an 1802 recently?  Or, a 2A03?  65816?  Z180?  6809?)  Don't
>> even *think* about finding an Ada compiler for them -- in the past!]
> 
> Well, the Janus/Ada compiler was available for Z80 in its day. There are also 
> Ada compilers that use C as an intermediate language, with applications for 
> example on TI MSP430's, but those were probably not available in the past ages 
> you refer to.

I recall JRT Pascal and PL/M as the "high level" languages, back then.
C compilers were notoriously bad.  You could literally predict the
code that would be generated for any statement.  The whole idea of
"peephole optimizers" looking for:
     STORE A
     LOAD A
sequences to elide is testament to how little global knowledge they
had of the code they were processing.

Performance?  A skilled ASM coder could beat the generated code
(in time AND space) without breaking into a sweat.

And, you bought a compiler/assembler/linker/debugger for *each*
processor -- not just a simple command line switch to alter the
code generation, etc.  Vendors might have a common codebase
for the tools but built each variant conditionally.

The limits of the language were largely influenced by the targeted
hardware -- "helper routines" to support longs, floats, etc.
("Oh, did you want that support to be *reentrant*?  We assumed
there would be a single floating point accumulator used throughout
the code, not one per thread!")  Different sizes of addresses
(e.g., for the Z180, you could have 16b "logical" addresses
and 24b physical addresses -- mapped into that logical space
by the compiler's runtime support and linkage editor.)

Portable code?  Maybe -- with quite a bit of work!

Fast/small?  Meh...

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How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2021-10-23 00:07 +0200
  Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2021-10-23 13:40 +1100
  Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-22 22:09 -0700
    Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2021-10-23 22:12 +0200
      Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-23 15:59 -0700
  Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-23 18:09 +0200
    Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2021-10-23 22:49 +0200
      Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-24 13:02 +0200
        Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2021-10-24 17:39 +0200
          Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-24 18:37 +0200
    Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2021-10-25 20:15 +0200
      Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-25 20:54 +0200
      Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-10-25 20:31 -0400
  Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Johann Klammer <klammerj@NOSPAM.a1.net> - 2021-10-24 12:39 +0200
    Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2021-10-24 14:14 +0300
      Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-24 12:54 -0700
        Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2021-10-24 23:27 +0300
          Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-24 14:08 -0700
            Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2021-10-25 00:50 +0300
              Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-24 15:47 -0700
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2021-10-25 02:32 +0300
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-24 18:34 -0700
            Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-25 09:41 +0200
            Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-10-25 10:56 +0300
              Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-25 01:19 -0700
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-10-25 11:52 +0300
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-25 02:50 -0700
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-25 13:49 +0200
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-10-25 15:16 +0300
          Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-10-25 11:09 +0300
            Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-25 01:28 -0700
              Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-10-25 12:06 +0300
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-25 02:35 -0700
            Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2021-10-25 16:04 +0300
              Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-10-25 18:34 +0300
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-25 10:43 -0700
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2021-10-25 20:53 +0300
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-25 11:02 -0700
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2021-10-25 19:52 +0200
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-25 11:10 -0700
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-10-25 21:33 +0300
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2021-10-25 22:09 +0300
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-10-25 22:53 +0300
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2021-10-25 23:02 +0300
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-26 00:05 +0200
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2021-10-25 23:46 +0200
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-25 20:58 +0200
            Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2021-10-26 08:43 +1100
        Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-10-25 21:32 +0000
          Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-25 15:24 -0700
            Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-10-27 00:20 +0000
              Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-26 17:52 -0700
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-10-27 05:22 +0000
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-29 15:36 -0700
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-10-31 22:54 +0000
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-10-31 20:37 -0700
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-11-11 04:34 +0000
                Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-11-19 16:21 -0700
      Re: How to write a simple driver in bare metal systems: volatile, memory barrier, critical sections and so on David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-25 08:57 +0200

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