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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #29460

Re: Custom CPU Designs

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.arch.embedded
Subject Re: Custom CPU Designs
Date 2020-04-16 13:28 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <r79fgp$9tj$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <abb9b585-5a14-45d0-b617-543a009a176c@googlegroups.com> <xrB*I6GPx@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

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On 16/04/2020 12:59, Theo wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In the Forth language group there are occasional discussions of custom
>> processors.  This is mostly because a simple stack processor can be
>> designed to be implemented in an FPGA very easily, taking little resources
>> and running at a good speed.  Such a stack processor is a good target for
>> Forth.
>>
>> I know there are many other types of CPU designs which are implemented in
>> FPGAs.  I'm wondering how often these are used by the typical embedded
>> developer?
> 
> It's not uncommon when you have an FPGA doing some task to need a processor
> in there to manage it - for example to handle error conditions or to report
> status over some software-friendly interface like I2C, or classical printf
> debugging on a UART.
> 
> Xilinx provides Microblaze and Intel/Altera provide NIOS, which are a bit
> legacy (toolchains aren't that great, etc), although designed to be fairly
> small.  There's increasing interest in small 32-bit RISC-V cores for this
> niche, since the toolchain is improving and the licensing conditions more
> liberal (RISC-V itself doesn't design cores, but lots of others - including
> ourselves - have made open source cores to the RISC-V specification).
> 
> I don't see that Forth has much to speak to this niche, given these cores
> are largely offloading work that's fiddly to do in hardware and people just
> want to write some (usually) C to mop up the loose ends.  I can't see what
> Forth would gain them for this.
> 
> If you're talking using these processors as a compute overlay for FPGAs, a
> different thing entirely, I'd suggest that a stack processor is likely not
> very efficient in terms of throughput.  Although I don't have a cite to back
> that up.
> 

That matches what I have seen from customers.  Very few people design 
their own cpus - it is rarely worth the effort.  (People do it for fun, 
which is a different matter.)  They want off-the-shelf cores and 
off-the-shelf tools.  And they want off-the-shelf programmers to work 
with them.

There was a time when FPGA's were smaller and more limited, where you 
might want an absolute minimal sized CPU core.  Then a stack-based core 
with a small decoder would be a good choice, and Forth a good fit. 
Those days are long gone.  Modern programmable logic is bigger and have 
architectural features that are a better fit for "standard" 32-bit RISC 
cores than older devices.  And the design tools make it easy - you pick 
your core, your peripherals, your memories, your interfaces from the 
libraries and let the tools make the buses, C header files, and 
everything else.

I can appreciate that Forth can be a very efficient language, and 
Forth-oriented cpus can be small and fast.  But efficiency of the 
hardware is not the only goal of a design.  I would expect that Forth 
and stack processors are almost exclusively used by developers who have 
been using them for the last twenty years already.

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Thread

Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-15 20:51 -0700
  Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 11:59 +0100
    Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-16 13:28 +0200
    Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-16 13:10 +0000
      Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 22:16 +0100
        Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-16 22:01 +0000
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-16 17:13 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 18:10 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 18:37 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-16 22:08 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 10:02 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 10:49 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 15:44 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 15:23 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 18:15 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 17:49 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 15:06 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 16:08 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:13 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:24 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:00 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-20 14:32 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 23:55 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2020-04-21 15:14 +0800
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-18 16:51 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 18:06 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:53 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 10:11 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-19 13:19 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 11:33 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:26 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:59 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 13:37 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 22:02 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 22:15 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 15:02 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 02:03 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:44 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:20 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:57 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 12:38 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:58 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:27 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 17:36 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 14:02 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 06:15 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 17:25 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 16:56 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 12:42 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 23:16 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:10 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 08:09 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 20:07 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-18 13:09 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 21:28 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-21 20:29 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-21 18:10 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-22 09:54 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 13:19 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-22 18:09 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:03 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:16 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 10:48 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 16:57 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:21 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-18 14:50 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:32 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 18:12 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 10:09 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:31 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:42 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-18 00:43 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 17:07 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 09:11 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-17 12:17 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 13:22 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-17 14:48 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 15:27 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:53 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 17:03 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 19:39 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 21:25 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 18:27 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 17:58 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-04-21 19:41 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 14:01 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 23:21 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-19 20:53 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 14:47 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 02:11 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-19 18:31 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 20:32 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 07:46 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 00:33 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 11:01 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:44 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 19:57 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:02 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 14:56 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-17 16:34 +0100
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:57 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-21 15:20 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 08:26 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:09 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 15:00 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:28 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 08:24 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 20:18 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 11:45 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-23 17:47 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-21 15:35 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Przemek Klosowski <przemek@tux.dot.org> - 2020-04-19 18:52 +0000
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 13:42 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-20 22:59 +1000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 17:01 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-21 10:23 +1000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 03:47 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-22 09:26 +1000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-22 22:06 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 14:18 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-23 22:35 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:20 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-04-22 18:16 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:06 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-04-22 20:17 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:28 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-04-23 04:59 -0400
                Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-20 17:27 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:58 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs pault.eg@googlemail.com - 2020-04-21 01:00 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 19:21 +0200
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-17 17:18 +0100
    Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 07:40 -0700
      Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 12:28 -0700
        Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 13:50 -0700
          Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 14:19 -0700
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 22:33 +0100
    Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 11:29 +1000
      Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 18:42 -0700
        Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 12:35 +1000
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 20:01 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 14:54 +1000
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 23:54 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 10:38 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 09:13 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 18:02 +0200

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