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Groups > linux.debian.user > #160960

The word 'should'

From Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com>
Newsgroups linux.debian.user
Subject The word 'should'
Date 2015-11-22 04:50 +0100
Message-ID <qxtP4-6wO-3@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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El 21/11/15 a las 18:10, Lisi Reisz escribió:
> On Saturday 21 November 2015 23:34:44 Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
>> When people is doing wrong, they ought to know that. If somebody isn't
>> going to listen to moral principles,
>
> It is not up to this list to teach us all moral principles.  We all have
> different moral principles.  Maybe some of us have none, though I doubt
> it.  "I like so and so" is fine.  "I like so and so because" is fine.
> Even "I recommend".

By "this list", I understand that you mean "the participants of this 
mailing list". With this in mind: Yes, of course it is up to us to teach 
you (or any other participant) the morals associated with using a computer!.

Your suggestion to treat morals as a matter of taste or a personal 
decision is absurd. Moral is not a matter of taste nor "like". It comes 
from observations, deductions, and judgment and it is precisely about 
what and how things *should* be done. Do we ought to tell people "I like 
to not to kill innocent people" instead of "You should not kill innocent 
people"?. Of course not. I am not comparing proprietary software to 
killing, I am examining the logical consequence of your "suggestion".

If people were responsible enough, we wouldn't have to insist on morals, 
they would figure it on themselves and act accordingly; and would "catch 
up" quickly on the remaining points from the existing conversation among 
their peers that already figured those remaining points. We have to keep 
insisting, like parents keep insisting on their misbehaving children, 
because people and children are irresponsible and need to be told things 
many times.

Moral is everywhere. From supermarket shopping to stock trading (all of 
those financial movements including product purchases have moral 
consequences) and of course, computers (including tablet computers and 
computer phones, more popularly miscalled "smart phones").

We all participants of the mailing list are members of *THE* society, 
the only society which is entangled to levels unthinking of in the best 
dreams and worst nightmares of our ancestors just 500 years ago (when we 
didn't have intercontinental planes, computers and computability theory 
were inexistent, and men was completely terrestrial (now we have been to 
the Moon and Earth's orbit)). What you do affects everybody.

We some people care about society's common good (we like to call it 
"consciousness") and our good (we like to call it "human nature"). 
Naturally, we comment on the things you do that affect society for bad, 
and in this context often that involves using or recommending 
proprietary software.

The point is that moral is an unavoidable consequence of daily life, and 
how you behave according to moral affects us individually and the 
society we care for, so it is only natural to expect moral comment for 
whatever you do.

> I am tired of being lectured at and carpeted for using Debian.  If the Thought
> Police think that the contrib and non-free repositories should not be there,
> they should take it up with the Developers.  As I have pointed out earlier,
> we should be able to use them in peace without being under this constant
> pressure and bullying.  (And it feels like bullying when I get jumped on
> every time I or someone I offer to help wants to use my/his/her computer to
> listen to the British media.)
>
> One of the reasons I like Debian is that it gives me the freedom to choose.
> Or anyhow, it did.  There are plenty of fully Free distros for those that
> want a fully Free distro.  We should (yes, should) be free to use the whole
> of Debian without being called immoral.

So either

(1) You are implicitly asserting that using proprietary software has no 
immoral consequences. Since you said you have been "lectured t and 
carpeted", I can tell that you have already been explained why it does.

(2) You are asserting nothing about whether it is moral consequences, 
but you are asserting that IF it has moral consequences, somehow (there 
is a missing step in your reasoning here) we ought to ignore those moral 
consequences. Since morals is about good and bad, fair and unfair, 
benefit and prejudice, you are implicitly asserting that we must just 
watch actionless as these wrongs, injustices or prejudices are being 
discussed as if there was nothing wrong, unfair, or prejudicial about them.

-----

Your problem is that you handle our criticism regarding the problems 
that proprietary software causes for you and for society as if it was a 
matter of taste, while it is not. There is a reason for this criticism. 
If you are being pressured or "carpeted", there is a reason for that 
pressure or carpeting. Why do you not listen to that reason?. If the 
reasons are void, then there is no reason you should feel pressured by 
them, since we would be speaking nonsense.

In short: If you do not want to be criticized for being indolent in 
using proprietary software, then stop being indolent and do not use 
proprietary software, period.

There was a driver who was cruising the 80th highway and heard in his 
radio "Warning to drivers of the 80th highway; warning to drivers of the 
80th highway: there is an idiot who driving backwards". He looks through 
the windshield and says "Ahhh, it's not a single one. There are *TENS* 
of them!!!".

That is all I have to said in this specific regard. If you reply, and I 
don't reply back, it's not that I do not have anything to say, but that 
I said it already.

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Re: Adobe Flash Alex Vong <alexvong1995@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 15:50 +0100
  Re: Adobe Flash Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 16:10 +0100
    Re: Adobe Flash Siard <shiems146@kpnplanet.nl> - 2015-11-18 16:40 +0100
      Re: Adobe Flash Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2015-11-18 19:50 +0100
        Re: Adobe Flash Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 20:40 +0100
          Re: Adobe Flash Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2015-11-19 00:50 +0100
            Re: Adobe Flash Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 01:30 +0100
      Re: Adobe Flash Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 14:10 +0100
    Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-18 19:00 +0100
      Re: Adobe Flash Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 19:00 +0100
        Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-18 20:30 +0100
          Re: Adobe Flash Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 20:40 +0100
            Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-19 18:00 +0100
              Re: Adobe Flash Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 01:10 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2015-11-20 01:40 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-20 08:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-11-20 09:30 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. (was: Adobe Flash) moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-21 05:50 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. (was: Adobe Flash) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 10:00 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. (was: Adobe Flash) Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-11-21 10:30 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. (was: Adobe Flash) moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-21 13:40 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-11-21 14:50 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-21 15:00 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-21 18:20 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-21 18:40 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 23:50 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-22 00:50 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-22 04:10 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. Mario Castelán Castro  <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2015-11-22 05:20 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 12:20 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. Ben Stones <ben@b3ns.com> - 2015-11-22 13:00 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-11-23 00:10 +0100
                Re: The word 'should'. moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-23 18:50 +0100
                Re: Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-22 18:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-11-20 09:30 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Mario Castelán Castro  <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2015-11-22 00:40 +0100
                Which repositories are permitted and which are not Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 01:20 +0100
                The word 'should' Mario Castelán Castro  <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2015-11-22 04:50 +0100
                Re: The word 'should' John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-11-22 05:00 +0100
                Re: The word 'should' Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 12:20 +0100
                Re: The word 'should' Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2015-11-22 17:50 +0100
                Re: The word 'should' Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 18:00 +0100
                Re: The word 'should' moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-22 20:00 +0100
                Re: The word 'should' Mario Castelán Castro  <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2015-11-22 23:40 +0100
                Re: The word 'should' Mario Castelán Castro  <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2015-11-22 23:40 +0100
                Re: The word 'should' Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-11-23 00:00 +0100
                Re: The word 'should' Mario Castelán Castro  <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2015-11-23 00:10 +0100
                Re: The word 'should' Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-11-23 00:40 +0100
                Re: The word 'should' Mario Castelán Castro  <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2015-11-23 00:40 +0100
                Re: The word 'should' Ben Stones <ben@b3ns.com> - 2015-11-23 01:30 +0100
                Re: The word 'should' Bob Holtzman <holtzm@cox.net> - 2015-11-22 21:30 +0100
              Re: Adobe Flash Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 01:10 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-20 07:50 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-11-20 09:30 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-21 05:10 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-11-21 05:30 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-21 05:50 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Glenn English <ghe@srv.slsware.net> - 2015-11-21 08:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-11-21 09:40 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 10:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-11-21 10:20 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-11-21 14:40 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-21 18:10 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 16:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 10:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-21 13:30 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-21 13:40 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-11-21 10:20 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-11-21 15:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 16:20 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-21 18:10 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 19:10 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-11-22 02:40 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 16:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-21 18:10 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-21 05:50 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2015-11-21 19:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 13:40 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-11-20 14:20 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-11-20 15:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-11-20 16:40 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-11-20 17:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 12:30 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2015-11-21 13:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-21 13:30 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2015-11-21 14:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 16:30 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-21 18:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 19:00 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-22 04:10 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2015-11-22 14:10 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 14:50 +0100
          Re: Adobe Flash Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 00:40 +0100
            Re: Adobe Flash Mario Castelán Castro  <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2015-11-22 01:00 +0100
              Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-22 04:00 +0100
              Re: Adobe Flash Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 16:10 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-22 19:50 +0100
                Re: Adobe Flash Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-11-23 00:10 +0100
                "operating system" Mario Castelán Castro  <marioxcc.MT@yandex.com> - 2015-11-23 02:50 +0100
                pointless linguistic one-upmanship (was Re: "operating system") Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2015-11-23 10:40 +0100
                Re: pointless linguistic one-upmanship (was Re: "operating system") Bob Holtzman <holtzm@cox.net> - 2015-11-23 20:30 +0100
                Re: pointless linguistic one-upmanship (was Re: "operating system") Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2015-11-24 11:30 +0100
                Re: pointless linguistic one-upmanship (was Re: "operating system") moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-24 15:50 +0100
    Re: Adobe Flash Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2015-11-18 19:40 +0100
      Re: Adobe Flash Tom Ashley <tomashleyjr@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 22:10 +0100
        Re: Adobe Flash Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 00:30 +0100
        Re: Adobe Flash Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2015-11-19 01:00 +0100
          Re: Adobe Flash Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 01:30 +0100
          Re: Adobe Flash Tom Ashley <tomashleyjr@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 02:30 +0100
            Re: Adobe Flash Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2015-11-19 02:30 +0100

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