Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems

From	Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems
Date	2020-01-06 07:12 -0600
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<quvb9p$rms$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <qHcQF.22112$MS2.17419@fx19.iad> <qutdje$tko$1@dont-email.me> <uUrQF.242435$%d1.180908@fx45.iad> <quu7ei$btv$1@dont-email.me> <m8yQF.61419$sS2.24799@fx15.iad>

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Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 6/1/20 2:00 pm, Les Cargill wrote:
>> Clifford Heath wrote:
>>> On 6/1/20 6:39 am, Les Cargill wrote:
>>>> Clifford Heath wrote:
>>>>> You need to understand about basic mutex operations, preferably 
>>>>> also semaphores, and beyond that to read and write barriers (if you 
>>>>> want to write lock-free code). It's a big subject.
>>>> And that's about an afternoon, really. Not so much the barriers and
>>>> bothering with lock-free. That may take a little more.
>> We can larf, but I think there's less to serialization than is made of 
>> it.
> 

Well said, Clifford, by the way.

> Serialization using one giant lock isn't too hard - that's how people 
> write code using interrupts. But it's a very simplified case, and the 
> problem is to use such simple locking to construct correct algorithms at 
> a higher level.
> 

I really feel it's just a matter of people stretching metaphors beyond
the breaking point. Most of the example cases I have seen to illustrate
these pathologies are rather contrived.

Most of these are due to ... reversing dependencies within a logic 
structure, not abuse of constructs. And yes, I have trouble reading
that sentence too.

I also don't want to appear to be too blase about things like cache 
lines, memory fences and all that. I just mean basic semaphores.

> Many apparently straightforward algorithms have dire pathologies when 
> the atomic operations can get interspersed at will. 

Because it can't very well be "at will". Aren't semaphores like the 
escapement mechanism in a regulator clock more than anything else?

They say "Not now."

> In many cases the 
> bugs will not ever show up during testing. And *that* is the real 
> problem. Such code must be *correct by construction*, but people 
> generally don't work that way.
> 

I will not disagree; it doesn't mean I have to like that state of 
affairs. To an extent the very word "correct" seems to inspire
helplessness.

> Clifford Heath.

-- 
Les Cargill

Thread

Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2020-01-03 14:41 +0100
  Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-03 15:19 +0100
    Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2020-01-05 01:25 +0100
      Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-05 13:32 -0600
        Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-01-05 16:49 -0500
          Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-05 21:05 -0600
        Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-01-05 17:08 -0700
          Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-05 21:26 -0600
            Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-01-05 22:10 -0700
              Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-06 07:37 -0600
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-01-06 17:21 -0700
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-07 19:23 -0600
              Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-01-06 20:36 -0500
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-07 01:38 -0600
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-01-07 06:53 -0500
            Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-01-06 07:13 -0500
            Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-07 10:11 +0100
              Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-01-07 07:05 -0500
              Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-07 19:34 -0600
          Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-01-06 10:44 +0200
            Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-01-06 02:51 -0700
              Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-01-06 15:39 +0200
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-01-06 13:29 -0500
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-01-06 14:38 -0700
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-01-07 07:05 +0200
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-01-07 13:09 -0500
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-01-07 20:53 +0200
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-01-08 08:43 +1100
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-01-08 00:33 +0200
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-01-08 15:26 +0200
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-01-08 00:08 +0200
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-07 10:37 +0100
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-01-06 16:10 -0700
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-01-07 07:37 +0200
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-07 01:49 -0600
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-01-07 06:43 -0700
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-01-07 10:21 +0200
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-01-07 06:42 -0700
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-01-07 22:23 -0500
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-01-09 22:07 +0200
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-01-07 10:54 +0200
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-01-07 06:43 -0700
          Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2020-01-06 18:01 +0100
            Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-01-06 19:47 +0200
    Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2020-01-05 01:58 +0100
      Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-01-05 14:26 +1100
        Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-01-05 11:21 +0200
          Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-05 14:07 +0100
            Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-01-05 17:46 +0200
              Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-05 19:08 +0100
        Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-05 13:56 +0100
        Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-05 13:39 -0600
          Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-01-06 07:44 +1100
            Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-05 21:00 -0600
              Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-01-06 14:50 +1100
                Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-06 07:12 -0600
      Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-01-04 22:34 -0800
        Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-05 14:12 +0100
          Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-01-05 18:00 +0200
        Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-05 13:44 -0600
      Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-01-06 14:52 -0500
      Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-01-06 15:05 -0500
        Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems gtwrek@sonic.net (gtwrek) - 2020-01-06 22:41 +0000
        Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-01-06 19:50 -0700
          Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-01-07 13:26 -0500
  Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-01-03 16:28 +0200
    Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2020-01-05 01:37 +0100
      Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-05 13:46 -0600
        Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-01-05 22:44 +0200
  Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-01-03 11:49 -0800
  Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-01-03 22:51 +0200
    Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2020-01-05 01:48 +0100
  Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Joe Chisolm <jchisolm6@earthlink.net> - 2020-01-03 15:34 -0600
  Re: Task priorities in non strictly real-time systems Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-01-03 21:46 -0500

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