Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman
Date	2019-10-06 11:37 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<qncclj$2ps$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <ee374657-1b6d-48f3-88af-65641a13157b@googlegroups.com> <qmoefg$vuf$1@dont-email.me> <qnahie$jdn$1@gioia.aioe.org> <slrnqphmi9.cdo.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid> <qnav0q$gmq$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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On 05/10/2019 22:38, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
> On 10/5/2019 11:00 AM, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>> On Sat, 2019-10-05, Manfred wrote:
>> ...
>>> I didn't know about these happenings with RMS before reading this
>>> thread, however after reading your messages and the original email from
>>> RMS as linked by Tim Rentsch,
>>
>> https://itsfoss.com/richard-stallman-controversy/
>>
>>> I think that RMS was not a victim of
>>> anyone else than himself, and by the way he was not an easy target at 
>>> all.
>>> I agree with you that his was an attempt to defend Mr. Minsky, but, as I
>>> see it, the relevant fact here is that what came out of his pen (i.e.
>>> keyboard) was not a defense, it was just a sick message.
>>>
>>> A sensible defense would have been, for example, that there was no
>>> evidence that Mr. Minsky had actually had any sex with the girl, but
>>> instead RMS wanted to assert that there would have been nothing wrong
>>> (not only legally, but also ethically) with a 72 old man having a
>>> relationship with a 17 years old, and with this happening on Epstein's
>>> private island btw.
>>> That, in my opinion, is just sick.
>>> I mean, in the circumstance a sane person would ask himself: what's
>>> going on here? and stop.
>>
>> Did you really read the mail (linked upthread)?  Where in it does he:
>>
>> 1. Defend Minsky?
>> 2. Say it's ethical for a 72-year old to have sex
>>     with teenagers?
>>
>> Let me summarize it the way I read it:
>>
>> - He sets up a likely scenario: Minsky was there, the girl offered
>>    sex, pretended to be willing, didn't say she was underage. They had
>>    sex, and no violence was involved.
> 
> This is gross.

You are entitled to your opinion on the matter, and what you personally 
think about sex between people of such different ages.  (Let's stress 
again that as far as we know, there was no sex, so this is all 
hypothetical in this particular case.)

However, accusations of "sexual assault" are about the law, not personal 
opinions.  I don't know about the law in the USA - or even if this 
private island is under USA jurisdiction, but in many countries the 
minimum legal age for sexual consent is 16 (and I never heard of a 
maximum legal age of consent).  Thus as long as there is mutual consent 
and no coercion, there is no crime in a 17 year old and a 72 year old 
having sex in most Western countries.

If there is coercion, whether by the man in question or by a third 
party, it's a different matter.  And then you get into questions about 
how much the man knew, or how much he should have surmised, when 
considering whether he was knowingly or unwittingly committing a crime. 
But that would be for courts to decide - not for gossip columns.

Any question of ethics is entirely dependent on the social norms of the 
society.  In some societies, sex between consenting participants of such 
different ages is considered their business alone, and no one else 
cares.  In some it is unacceptable.  In others, it is acceptable if they 
are married (in which case consent is probably legally assumed, whether 
it is real or not) - but if they are not married, it is viewed as a 
deadly sin.

So form the opinions you want - but be aware that they are mere 
opinions, and are personal and not universal.  If you want to judge the 
character of the people involved, at least do so based on the facts - if 
you are not sure of the facts, don't use rumours for judgements.

Thread

OT: Richard Mathew Stallman jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2019-09-27 16:14 +0200
  Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-09-27 07:45 -0700
    Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-09-27 09:22 -0700
      Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-09-27 09:48 -0700
      Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2019-09-28 08:53 -0400
        Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-09-28 09:01 -0400
          Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2019-09-30 19:10 +0200
            Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-09-30 13:54 -0400
              Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-10-01 16:24 +1300
                Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-10-01 00:34 -0700
            Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-09-30 20:46 -0400
        Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-09-28 12:37 -0700
          Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2019-09-28 22:06 +0200
            Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-10-05 18:49 +0200
              Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-10-05 18:00 +0000
                Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-10-05 13:38 -0700
                Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-06 11:37 +0200
                Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-10-06 12:42 -0700
                Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-07 02:19 -0700
                Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2019-10-08 20:14 +0200
                Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-10-08 21:30 -0700
                Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2019-10-08 22:18 -0700
                Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-10-05 23:32 +0200
                Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-10-06 06:04 -0700
        Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-09-30 12:02 -0700
    Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-09-27 16:31 +0000
      Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-09-27 09:50 -0700
    Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-09-28 01:41 -0700
      Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-09-29 06:26 -0700
        Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-09-29 07:03 -0700
      Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-10-01 23:42 -0700
        Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-10-01 23:43 -0700
        Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-10-02 02:13 -0700
  Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman queequeg@trust.no1 (Queequeg) - 2019-09-27 14:58 +0000
  Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-09-27 16:30 +0000
    Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-09-27 19:44 +0200
    Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-09-30 12:28 -0700
      Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-09-30 20:09 +0000
  Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-09-27 10:32 -0700
    Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-09-27 17:51 +0000
    Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-09-27 21:06 +0200
    Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2019-09-28 07:45 +0200
  Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2019-09-29 19:23 +0300
    Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2019-09-29 13:15 -0400
      Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2019-10-03 18:48 +0300
        Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-10-03 09:06 -0700
          Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-10-03 16:20 +0000
        Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-10-03 16:19 +0000
          Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2019-10-03 09:24 -0700
  Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman: an exchange of emails jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2019-09-30 22:56 +0200
    Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman: an exchange of emails Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2019-09-30 21:12 +0000
      Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman: an exchange of emails jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2019-09-30 23:41 +0200
        Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman: an exchange of emails David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-01 10:49 +0200
      Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman: an exchange of emails jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2019-09-30 23:58 +0200
        Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman: an exchange of emails Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2019-10-01 04:17 +0000
          Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman: an exchange of emails Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-10-04 12:52 +0000
            Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman: an exchange of emails Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2019-10-04 06:10 -0700
            Re: OT: Richard Mathew Stallman: an exchange of emails jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2019-10-04 23:58 +0200

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