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Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern"

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On 04/09/2019 03:10, James Kuyper wrote:
> On 9/3/19 9:45 AM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 03/09/2019 14:57, Tim Rentsch wrote:
> ...
>>> These statements are misleading.  An implementation may legally
>>> support this pattern, with no diagnostics, and still conform to
>>> the Standard.  Nothing in the Standard forbids that.  Neither does
>>> the Standard require it, but that doesn't make it illegal, just
>>> not advisable.  (More specifically, the behavior is undefined.)
>>
>>
>> If you have "int x;" in a translation unit (without any "static"
>> involved), that counts as an external definition of "x" with external
>> linkage.  (6.9.2p2 and 6.9.2p1).  If this identifier is used in an
>> expression (other than an unevaluated expression, such as a sizeof),
>> there must be exactly one definition of it (6.9p5).  These are "shall"
>> rules - they are as strong as the standards get.
> 
> No, the strongest requirements imposed by the standard include a
> mandatory diagnostic. A diagnostic is mandatory for violation of a
> "shall" or "shall not" statement only when it occurs in a Constraints
> section - this one does not.
> 

Thanks for the clarification.

> 
>> I don't see anything in the standards (I'm looking at C11, but I don't
>> think these things have changed) requiring a conforming compiler to give
>> diagnostics about multiple "int x;" definitions in a program.  But as I
>> read it, it breaks a "shall" requirement, and that is as close to
>> "illegal" as you can get.
> 
> Which isn't very close. A fully conforming implementation of C could
> issue all mandatory diagnostics, and then go ahead and complete
> translation of the program normally. "Illegal" implies some punishment
> if caught, and some effort to catch perpetrators, and that doesn't
> apply, not even metaphorically, to any provision of the C standard.
> 

The word "illegal" is used in a wider sense than that in many
situations, including software development.  The C standard mentions
"illegal instructions" - if you execute an "illegal instruction" on a
cpu, you can expect a crash, exception, trap, or nasal demons, but not a
police officer and a court case.

> ...
>> But the fact that most C compilers support it, and that a fair amount of
>> C code requires it, does not mean the language standard allows it.
> 
> The fact that the C standard does not prohibit a fully conforming
> implementation of C from accepting such code, means that the standard
> does allow it. It allows a great deal, and prohibits very little.
> 

Fair enough.  I was under the impression that "shall" requirements were
equally strong, but as you and Keith have now shown me, there is a
significant difference between these requirements under "Constraints"
and "Semantics".  Multiple definitions of an identifier with /internal/
linkage inside a translation unit are a constraint violation, and thus
require a diagnostic.  Multiple definitions of an identifier with
/external/ linking and definitions in different translation units is
undefined behaviour - which means compilers can give it a defined
behaviour if they want.

Thanks for the information and explanation.

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Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-08-20 13:11 +0000
  Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-08-20 16:09 +0200
  Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-08-20 16:41 +0100
    Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-08-20 16:47 +0100
    Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-08-20 19:27 +0200
      Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2019-08-20 13:54 -0400
        Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-08-21 02:09 +0100
        Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-08-21 10:54 +0200
      Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-08-21 00:41 +0100
        Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-08-21 10:58 +0200
  Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2019-08-20 16:10 +0000
    Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2019-08-20 16:23 -0700
  Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2019-08-21 06:50 -0700
    Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-08-22 20:20 +0000
      Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-08-23 00:25 +0200
      Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-08-23 01:35 +0100
        Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-08-23 03:40 +0000
          Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-08-23 11:09 +0100
        Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-08-23 08:16 +0200
      Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-08-23 15:02 +0000
        Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-08-23 17:06 +0100
          Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-08-23 18:40 +0000
          Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-08-23 20:38 +0000
            Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2019-08-23 17:55 -0400
              Richard Damon weighs in... (Was: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern") gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-08-23 23:50 +0000
  Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2019-08-27 15:03 -0700
    Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-09-03 05:57 -0700
      Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-09-03 15:45 +0200
        Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-09-03 11:13 -0700
          Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-09-04 12:11 +0200
            Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-09-04 08:18 -0400
          Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-09-06 02:25 -0700
            Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-09-06 11:45 +0200
          Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-09-06 21:15 +0100
        Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-09-03 21:10 -0400
          Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-09-04 12:21 +0200
      Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2019-09-04 12:04 -0700
        Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-09-04 15:29 -0400
        Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-09-06 02:46 -0700
  Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-09-05 10:01 +0200
    Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2019-09-05 10:43 -0700
      Re: Question about use (and non-use) of "extern" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-09-06 20:24 +0200

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