Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #476277

Re: E=mc2

From	benj <benj.fake@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: E=mc2
Date	2018-11-04 23:12 -0500
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<prog07$trh$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	<f179d481-c820-403c-908f-2cf6c4f02326@googlegroups.com> <g41rgfFq4coU1@mid.individual.net> <prmp0o$4e9$3@gioia.aioe.org> <g49k9dFh9maU1@mid.individual.net>

Show all headers | View raw

On 11/4/2018 8:21 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 4/11/2018 11:34 pm, Buck Dehner wrote:
>> Sylvia Else wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/11/2018 8:43 am, Omar Shabsigh wrote:
>>>>    I was not convinced by the derivation of this formula whether by
>>>>    Einstein or others. HELP!!!!!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>> You haven't provided much information. You might have an issue with the
>>> postulates or with the algebra. Or you might just have a philosophical
>>> objection that is incapable of being addressed by any kind of argument.
>>> It is generally accepted that the algebra is correct, and the resulting
>>> formula fits experimental results.
>>
>> Negative. E=mc² is invalid from head to tail. Based entirely on circular
>> reasoning and assumed assertions. When you can prove that E=/=mc³ or that
>> E=/=mc^1.6 wake me up.
>>
> 
> I think this betrays a lack of understanding of what physics is about.
> 
> So far, we have no reason to think that we can deduce the laws of the 
> universe from first principles. If we could, that would imply that only 
> one set of laws is conceivable.

As Einstein said there is no path leading from experiment to a theory.

> Instead, we make observations of how the universe behaves, and try to 
> fit those observations into a mathematical framework that allows us to 
> predict the results of observations that have not yet been made.

WE must use intuition, fantasy and imagination to attempt to guess a 
theory that fits observations. If that theory then predicts things found 
to be true, it considered successful. But if even one prediction is 
wrong then the theory is wrong. As Feynman said: Period!

> Einstein looked at the laws of electromagnetism, and formed the view 
> that they suggested that the laws of physics depend only on relative 
> motion. One ramification of that would be the observed constancy of the 
> speed of light. He then showed that this hypothesis leads to a number of 
> conclusions, of which E = mc^2 is one. The exponent of two arises 
> inexorably from the algebra. No other exponent can be derived that way. 
> If the correct exponent is other than two, then the hypothesis must be 
> wrong. As has already been pointed out, any exponent other than two 
> would also raise the problem that the equation would be dimensionally 
> inconsistent.

Not quite. In Einstein's day there was considerable speculation of the 
the Galilean principle of relativity (1632) applied to electromagnetic 
phenomena. It was widely suspected that it did. A number of persons 
generated theories (well before Einstein) which Einstein more or less 
brought together (without crediting any of them). MMX was a problem that 
needed to be explained. Einstein just too it as an axiom without 
explaining it.

> The hypothesis might indeed have been wrong. If it were, one would 
> expect one or more of the conclusions to be found to be false. So far 
> they have not been. In particular, E = mc^2 stands up very well.
> 
> Sylvia.

Not as well as you think. Like so much in physics the basic idea has 
been extrapolated and stretched until it squeals.

Thread

E=mc2 Omar Shabsigh <omar.shabsigh@gmail.com> - 2018-11-01 14:43 -0700
  Re: E=mc2 Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-11-01 22:55 +0000
  E=mc2 "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-11-01 16:04 -0700
    Re: E=mc2 "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-11-02 09:21 -0700
      Re: E=mc2 "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-11-02 09:52 -0700
        Re: E=mc2 "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-11-02 15:28 -0700
  Re: E=mc2 Omar Shabsigh <omar.shabsigh@gmail.com> - 2018-11-01 17:53 -0700
    Re: E=mc2 Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-11-02 01:02 +0000
    Re: E=mc2 Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-02 18:43 +0100
      Re: E=mc2 mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-11-02 11:21 -0700
  Re: E=mc2 Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2018-11-02 13:35 +1100
    Re: E=mc2 mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-11-01 21:43 -0700
    Re: E=mc2 The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-11-01 23:09 -0700
    Re: E=mc2 mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-11-02 01:33 -0700
    Re: E=mc2 Buck Dehner <uktoa@yswdoez.cb> - 2018-11-04 12:34 +0000
      Re: E=mc2 Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-04 14:20 +0100
        Re: E=mc2 "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-11-04 05:51 -0800
        Re: E=mc2 Buck Dehner <uktoa@yswdoez.cb> - 2018-11-05 20:51 +0000
          Re: E=mc2 Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2018-11-06 10:57 +1100
            Re: E=mc2 Ntowicz Usarczyk <iswso@wioioksi.io> - 2018-11-06 20:21 +0000
              Re: E=mc2 Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2018-11-07 08:57 +1100
                Re: E=mc2 Ntowicz Usarczyk <iswso@wioioksi.io> - 2018-11-07 19:35 +0000
                Re: E=mc2 Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2018-11-08 09:32 +1100
                Re: E=mc2 Gaston Castaneda <agn@j2awdos.nc> - 2018-11-08 21:13 +0000
                Re: E=mc2 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-08 22:26 +0100
                Re: E=mc2 Gaston Castaneda <ucpp@j2adosw.nv> - 2018-11-09 19:46 +0000
                Re: E=mc2 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-10 02:47 +0100
              Re: E=mc2 Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-07 00:13 +0100
                Re: E=mc2 Ntowicz Usarczyk <iswso@wioioksi.io> - 2018-11-07 19:38 +0000
      Re: E=mc2 benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-11-04 13:17 -0500
        Re: E=mc2 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-04 20:01 +0100
          Re: E=mc2 benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-11-04 14:38 -0500
            Re: E=mc2 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-04 20:53 +0100
              Re: E=mc2 benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-11-04 18:01 -0500
                Re: E=mc2 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-05 01:58 +0100
                Re: E=mc2 benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-11-04 22:59 -0500
                Re: E=mc2 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-05 05:39 +0100
                Re: E=mc2 Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-05 07:54 +0100
                Re: E=mc2 Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-11-05 22:33 -0600
                Re: E=mc2 Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-06 06:27 +0100
                Re: E=mc2 Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-06 06:28 +0100
                Re: E=mc2 mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-11-04 23:28 -0800
            Re: E=mc2 Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-11-04 22:14 +0000
              Re: E=mc2 benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-11-04 18:05 -0500
                Re: E=mc2 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-05 02:02 +0100
                Re: E=mc2 benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-11-04 22:59 -0500
                Re: E=mc2 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-05 05:51 +0100
                Re: E=mc2 Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-11-05 03:00 +0000
                Re: E=mc2 benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-11-04 23:15 -0500
                Re: E=mc2 Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-11-05 12:59 +0000
          Re: E=mc2 Buck Dehner <uktea@yswdoiz.cp> - 2018-11-05 21:00 +0000
            Re: E=mc2 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-13 15:38 +0100
              Re: E=mc2 Gaston Castaneda <uucp@jav4ow.nq> - 2018-11-13 20:22 +0000
                Re: E=mc2 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-13 23:09 +0100
                Re: E=mc2 Shon Wible <shwn@shouwe.wh> - 2018-11-14 15:53 +0000
        Re: E=mc2 Buck Dehner <uktoa@yswdoez.cb> - 2018-11-05 20:54 +0000
        Re: E=mc2 Steve BH <sbharris@gmail.com> - 2018-11-07 22:35 -0800
        Re: E=mc2 Steve BH <sbharris@gmail.com> - 2018-11-07 22:44 -0800
          Re: E=mc2 "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-11-08 06:34 -0800
      Re: E=mc2 Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2018-11-05 12:21 +1100
        Re: E=mc2 benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-11-04 23:12 -0500
          Re: E=mc2 Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2018-11-05 16:30 +1100
  Re: E=mc2 Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-11-02 16:48 -0700
    Re: E=mc2 mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-11-02 19:07 -0700
    Re: E=mc2 Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-08 08:48 +0100

csiph-web