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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #492802

Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?)

From "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com>
Newsgroups rec.arts.sf.written, rec.arts.sf.science, sci.space.policy, sci.physics
Subject Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?)
Date 2018-06-03 04:17 -0400
Organization An east coast U.S. university
Message-ID <pf0872$6qm$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (3 earlier) <t63ogdp69so3klmm0cpuc13k1gjq9lmrk6@4ax.com> <baiogdhtk5m4u385mlgdv530agvj8ce9tk@4ax.com> <vqtogdhisj5bl28visfpnhkoc2li07ggm0@4ax.com> <peldsf$haq$1@dont-email.me> <pes925$6i6$1@newsreader5.netcologne.de>

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Thomas Koenig"  wrote in message 
news:pes925$6i6$1@newsreader5.netcologne.de...

Robert Clark <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> schrieb:
>===========================================================
> "J. Clarke"  wrote in message
> news:vqtogdhisj5bl28visfpnhkoc2li07ggm0@4ax.com...
>
> On Mon, 28 May 2018 11:30:57 -0700, Fred J. McCall
><fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ...
>>>>Note that SpaceX has already acknowledged that the Falcon 9 first stage
>>>>and
>>>>the BFR stages will have SSTO capability, but with small payload.
>>>
>>>Source?  And I don't mean some throwaway comment or some blog post by
>>>somebody who doesn't work for SpaceX.
>>>
>>
>>Well, he's not exactly an employee but Elon Musk has said that a
>>Falcon 9 Full Thrust first stage reaches (a very low) orbit on an
>>expendable launch and that they deliberately give it a little boost
>>back toward the ground so that it doesn't hang around up there for a
>>month or two.
>
> Source?  Other than a tweet?

Well, one could try plugging the available numbers into the rocket
equation.  I've taken them from
http://www.spaceflight101.net/falcon-9-v11.html (accuracy is
probably debatable, plus the numbers are old, so a grain of
salt is advised).

Average specific impulse (in seconds, yech) could be a bit more than
300 s, let's say v_e = 3000 m/s effective exhaust velocity.

m_full = 418.8 tons. m_empty = 23.1 tons.

v_max = v_e * ln(m_full/m_empty) = 8700 m/s.  Probably not quite
enough, and certainly not useful (I've left out any payload
and the aerodynamic nose cone).
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The base F9 booster had a better mass ratio because it didn't have landing 
legs and other recovery add-ons that add significantly to the weight.

In a 2012 lecture, Elon Musk at about the 30 minute mark, gave the 
propellant fraction of the non-reusable version of the F9 as in the range of 
95.5% to 96%:

Elon Musk lecture at the Royal Aeronautical Society.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyjBGvYETmo

From the transcript:
[quote]Where SpaceX, I think, does quite well is in the mass ratio of the 
stages. We have a very good stage mass ratio that's, with the current 
version of Falcon 9, the first stage is around the 94% propellant by mass, 
and with the new design of Falcon 9 we're closer to 96%, maybe 95.5%, and 
with a slight improvement in ISP. The Merlin architecture is an open cycle 
architecture, so it doesn't have the ISP advantage of a staged combustion 
system, and it's using RP-1 so we're talking ISP for the first stage booster 
engine around 310 to 312 and, for the vacuum version, that's around 340 to 
345. The penalty for an open cycle engine is much less in a vacuum than it 
is at sea level. So that's where we are. So, we definitely need a new engine 
for any kind of, sending people to Mars kind of stuff, but I think we can 
still get to full reusability with the current engines despite having a bit 
of an ISP disadvantage relative to say, the Russian kerosene based 
engines./[quote]
http://shitelonsays.com/transcript/elon-musk-lecture-at-the-royal-aeronautical-society-2012-11-16


  Bob Clark


------------------------------------------------------------------
Single-stage-to-orbit was already shown possible 50 years ago
with the Titan II first stage.
In fact, contrary to popular belief SSTO's are actually easy.
Just use the most efficient engines and stages at the same time,
and the result will automatically be SSTO.
Blog: Http://Exoscientist.blogspot.com
------------------------------------------------------------------

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Thread

Life on Europa in scifi? "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> - 2018-04-25 07:29 -0400
  Re: Life on Europa in scifi? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-04-25 13:44 +0000
  Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 14:34 -0500
    Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-04-26 01:03 +0000
    Re: Life on Europa in scifi? "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-04-25 21:22 -0400
  Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-04-25 14:44 -0700
  Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Steve Dodds <sdodds@nova-optical.com> - 2018-04-25 16:04 -0600
  Re: Life on Europa in scifi? William Elliot <marsh@panix.com> - 2018-04-25 21:22 -0700
    Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-04-26 18:27 +1200
      Re: Life on Europa in scifi? David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-26 08:56 -0600
      Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-04-27 05:32 +0000
        Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-04-27 18:40 +1200
          Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 08:04 -0700
            Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2018-04-27 09:48 -0700
              Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 12:52 -0500
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 11:02 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 22:11 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-04-30 09:22 -0700
              Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 11:01 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-04-27 11:48 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 12:45 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-04-27 13:06 -0700
              Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-04-28 09:37 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 15:17 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 22:12 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-04-28 05:47 +0000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-04-28 07:47 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-04-28 19:15 +0000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-04-28 13:11 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-04-29 09:24 -0600
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-29 11:28 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? "Default User" <defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-30 00:16 +0000
          Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Paul Colquhoun <newsposter@andor.dropbear.id.au> - 2018-04-27 18:01 +1000
            Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-04-28 12:32 +1200
              Re: Life on Europa in scifi? David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-27 20:06 -0600
              Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 22:07 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-04-28 14:26 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-28 00:49 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-04-29 04:01 -0500
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-29 09:16 -0400
            Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-04-28 05:36 -0700
              Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-28 09:51 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-04-28 10:59 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-28 15:15 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-04-28 13:37 -0700
          Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 22:05 -0400
            Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-04-28 14:28 +1200
              Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-28 00:50 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-04-28 18:37 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-28 01:05 -0600
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-04-28 09:25 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-04-28 19:13 +0000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Paul Colquhoun <newsposter@andor.dropbear.id.au> - 2018-04-29 11:18 +1000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-04-29 17:04 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-04-28 23:24 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-04-29 19:20 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-29 01:43 -0600
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-04-29 10:21 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-04-29 18:11 +0000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2018-04-29 18:57 -0500
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-29 20:18 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-04-30 15:02 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-04-30 14:19 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Paul Colquhoun <newsposter@andor.dropbear.id.au> - 2018-04-30 13:21 +1000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-04-30 18:15 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-04-29 23:17 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-05-01 00:05 +0000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2018-05-01 15:33 +0000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? mvp@web1.calweb.com (Mike Van Pelt) - 2018-05-01 19:00 +0000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2018-05-01 20:09 +0000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-04-30 00:28 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-04-30 03:37 -0500
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-30 10:07 -0600
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-04-30 14:53 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-04-30 11:46 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-04-30 11:29 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-30 20:48 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-05-01 11:10 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-05-01 11:18 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-05-01 15:30 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-05-02 18:21 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2018-05-02 12:09 +0000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-05-02 07:45 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-05-02 19:16 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-05-02 19:54 -0600
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-05-03 03:24 +0000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-05-03 18:22 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-05-03 06:16 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-05-03 14:47 +0000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-05-03 09:30 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-05-04 09:03 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-05-03 15:17 -0600
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-05-03 14:52 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Paul Colquhoun <newsposter@andor.dropbear.id.au> - 2018-05-04 08:42 +1000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-05-03 21:09 -0500
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-05-03 20:49 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-05-04 18:05 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-05-04 06:25 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-05-04 22:06 -0500
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-05-04 06:09 +0000
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-05-04 18:39 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-05-04 06:29 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-05-04 15:21 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2018-05-05 11:31 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-05-04 18:56 -0600
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-05-05 16:01 +1200
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-05-05 02:55 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2018-05-05 10:14 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-05-05 11:46 -0600
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-05-05 19:10 -0600
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-05-06 19:17 -0500
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-05-01 22:39 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-05-01 13:29 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-05-01 15:32 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-05-02 13:49 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-05-02 14:44 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-05-02 15:13 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-05-02 19:05 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-05-03 06:06 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-05-01 19:45 -0400
            Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-06-01 19:29 -0700
              Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-06-01 19:50 -0700
          Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-04-29 18:05 +0000
        Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> - 2018-04-28 22:14 +0200
  Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-29 12:39 -0400
    Re: Life on Europa in scifi? "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> - 2018-05-28 07:19 -0400
      Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-05-28 05:38 -0700
        Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-05-28 10:40 -0400
          Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-05-28 11:36 -0700
            Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-05-29 06:19 -0400
              Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-05-30 01:08 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-05-30 06:30 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-05-30 15:00 -0700
        Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> - 2018-05-28 13:28 -0400
          Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-05-28 13:35 -0400
      Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-05-28 10:27 -0400
        Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> - 2018-05-28 14:03 -0400
        Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-05-28 11:30 -0700
          Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-05-28 18:00 -0400
            Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-05-28 23:39 -0700
              Re: Life on Europa in scifi? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-05-29 02:59 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-05-29 03:07 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Alain Fournier <alain245@videotron.ca> - 2018-05-29 07:10 -0400
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-05-29 14:36 -0700
                Re: Life on Europa in scifi? Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-05-30 01:11 -0700
            Once into the breach: SSTO's (was more Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> - 2018-05-30 01:46 -0400
              Re: Once into the breach: SSTO's (was more Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-06-01 20:07 +0000
                Re: Once into the breach: SSTO's (was more Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-06-01 22:51 -0400
                Re: Once into the breach: SSTO's (was more Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-06-02 16:19 +0000
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> - 2018-06-03 04:17 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 04:38 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 01:58 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 05:10 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 14:01 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 14:06 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 17:59 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 16:12 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 19:54 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 00:41 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-06-03 19:36 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 01:00 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-06-04 07:32 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Alan Baker <nunya@ness.biz> - 2018-06-04 09:13 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 16:08 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 19:37 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-05 07:25 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 13:39 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-06 06:44 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 20:55 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 22:59 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 06:20 +0000
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 02:09 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 10:09 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-06 07:00 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 10:24 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-06 06:50 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 20:54 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 18:16 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-06-06 06:21 +0000
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 02:14 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-06 07:08 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-06-07 16:42 +0000
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-07 12:26 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> - 2018-06-10 20:16 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-10 20:13 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2018-07-11 16:12 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-06-04 15:40 +0000
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 16:11 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2018-06-03 16:47 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2018-06-03 10:29 +0000
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 09:25 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 14:21 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 18:19 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 16:15 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 19:55 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 00:44 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> - 2018-06-17 09:30 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-17 16:55 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-06-17 16:59 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-06-17 19:29 -0600
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2018-06-18 00:01 -0700
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-19 06:58 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> - 2018-06-21 16:34 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2018-06-22 07:30 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOCKail.com> - 2018-06-23 14:05 -0400
                Re: Once more into the breach: SSTO's (was Re: Life on Europa in scifi?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2018-06-23 17:22 -0400

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