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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #433165
| From | "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics.relativity |
| Subject | Re: Train gedanken - again. |
| Date | 2017-09-21 14:03 +0200 |
| Organization | albasani.net |
| Message-ID | <oq09pr$eed$1@news.albasani.net> (permalink) |
| References | <opr46v$jhn$1@dont-email.me> <fdf54934-de56-4007-b88a-3f3cb04714d4@googlegroups.com> |
Den 20.09.2017 22.14, skrev kenseto: > On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 8:57:06 AM UTC-4, Paul B. Andersen wrote: >> Here is a variant of Einstein's 'train gedanken'. >> >> Consider the following thought experiment. >> Note what is given, and what is NOT given. >> >> Can you answer the questions? >> >> The given scenario: >> - A train is moving at some speed along the railway. >> - Paul is in the middle of the train. >> - Ralph is standing close by the railway. >> - At some time, a lightening bolt hits the front >> end of the train, leaving a mark at the ground. >> - At some time, a lightening bolt hits the aft >> end of the train, leaving a mark at the ground. >> >> The observations: >> - At some time, Paul passes Ralph. >> - At some later time, Ralph sees the flashes >> from the lightening bolts simultaneously. >> - At some time, Paul sees the flash from the front, >> and shortly later, he sees the flash from the aft end. >> - Ralph finds that he is midway between the marks in the ground. >> >> The above are given facts, and can not be disputed. >> The scenario and observations are obviously possible >> in the real world. > > No these are not facts, because you already assumed RoS. >> >> Comment -------------------------------------- >> | The interpretation of the observations is >> | dependent of what assumptions are made >> | for the propagation of light. So different >> | theories of physics will give different >> | conclusions for what the observations imply. >> ---------------------------------------------- >> >> Version #1 >> ---------- >> Assumptions: >> Assume Galilean relativity, and that the speed >> of light is c relative to Ralph. >> Question #1: >> What must Ralph and Paul conclude about >> the temporal sequence of the lightening bolts? >> Paul and Ralph may exchange information about >> their observations before they draw their conclusions. Is the RoS assumed? >> >> Version #2 >> ---------- >> Assumptions: >> Assume Galilean relativity, and that the speed >> of light is c relative to Paul. >> Question #2: >> What must Ralph and Paul conclude about >> the temporal sequence of the lightening bolts? >> Paul and Ralph may exchange information about >> their observations before they draw their conclusions. Is the RoS assumed? >> >> Version #3 >> ---------- >> Assumptions: >> Assume that the speed of light is invariant >> (the same in all inertial frames). >> Question #3: >> What must Ralph and Paul conclude about >> the temporal sequence of the lightening bolts? >> >> Question #4 >> What does the thought experiment prove about >> the relativity of simultaneity? >> >> >> -- >> Paul >> >> https://paulba.no/ -- Paul https://paulba.no/
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Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-19 14:56 +0200
Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-19 06:00 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 14:48 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 14:53 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2017-09-19 08:05 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-19 09:09 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2017-09-19 09:35 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-19 10:45 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 22:01 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2017-09-20 07:30 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-20 20:00 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-19 07:55 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 14:58 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-20 09:18 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-20 04:48 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-20 13:47 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-20 14:33 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 09:05 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-20 16:07 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 01:24 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 12:22 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 15:28 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 15:40 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-29 09:20 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-29 08:49 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-29 12:08 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-29 05:59 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:22 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:08 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-27 20:30 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-20 20:42 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 08:39 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-21 02:18 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 08:25 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 01:37 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 12:34 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 13:30 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 06:44 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-10-10 00:24 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-22 03:02 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 06:50 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-22 22:23 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 10:08 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-23 04:09 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-23 13:32 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 09:02 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-24 06:31 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-23 19:37 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 07:26 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-24 16:44 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 08:03 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-24 17:35 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 08:26 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 17:36 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-24 18:24 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 07:34 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 15:49 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 07:56 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-25 00:00 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:47 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-25 00:47 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 23:53 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 19:53 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-25 02:58 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:54 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 03:15 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-25 10:19 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:56 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 03:11 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-25 14:43 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 01:26 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 02:06 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-27 08:39 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:52 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 03:18 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-25 10:21 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:19 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 15:48 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 08:31 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-24 17:46 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-24 09:30 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2017-09-24 08:04 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-24 08:24 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-23 14:11 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 08:53 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-24 02:31 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 16:39 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-24 12:34 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 08:30 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-24 22:32 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 09:41 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-25 02:51 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 15:51 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-25 12:48 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-20 11:13 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-20 02:31 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 02:34 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-20 03:25 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-19 22:40 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 08:08 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 08:46 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 08:33 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-20 00:04 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 00:34 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 00:42 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 10:54 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 08:49 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-20 15:59 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 01:54 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 12:43 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 12:56 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-22 11:04 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:36 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 01:38 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-27 20:00 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 12:06 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:30 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:04 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-21 20:36 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 07:21 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-26 21:57 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 20:57 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-26 21:00 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 15:24 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-27 17:39 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 02:52 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 10:48 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-20 15:13 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-20 20:19 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-20 20:02 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 09:10 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-21 12:46 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-20 13:14 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 13:27 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 09:29 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-21 14:03 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-21 05:19 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-21 12:42 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-21 07:24 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-21 22:16 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 08:51 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-22 03:02 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-21 20:18 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-21 20:39 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-21 20:42 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 07:49 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-21 23:51 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 09:04 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 09:08 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-22 00:27 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 11:52 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-22 04:05 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:46 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 12:26 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:31 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:01 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-27 20:22 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 12:00 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-22 14:08 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:41 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 12:28 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:32 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:02 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-22 07:03 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-22 19:55 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:42 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-23 06:55 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-24 11:17 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 08:30 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-22 13:52 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-22 05:34 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 08:05 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-23 15:38 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 09:12 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-23 16:17 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-24 11:03 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-24 07:11 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 07:38 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 08:43 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-25 14:38 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-25 07:15 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-25 07:38 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 04:20 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 01:23 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-24 06:48 -0700
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