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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #432974
| From | HGW <HW@home.net> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics.relativity |
| Subject | Re: Train gedanken - again. |
| Date | 2017-09-20 09:18 +1000 |
| Organization | Aioe.org NNTP Server |
| Message-ID | <ops8jj$1rqc$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink) |
| References | <opr46v$jhn$1@dont-email.me> |
On 19/09/17 22:56, Paul B. Andersen wrote:
> Here is a variant of Einstein's 'train gedanken'.
>
> Consider the following thought experiment.
> Note what is given, and what is NOT given.
>
> Can you answer the questions?
>
> The given scenario:
> - A train is moving at some speed along the railway.
> - Paul is in the middle of the train.
> - Ralph is standing close by the railway.
> - At some time, a lightening bolt hits the front
> end of the train, leaving a mark at the ground.
> - At some time, a lightening bolt hits the aft
> end of the train, leaving a mark at the ground.
HAHAHHAHHAHA! You are hilarious today, Paul.
If the lightning left a mark on the ground it struck the ground and not the train.
> The observations:
> - At some time, Paul passes Ralph.
> - At some later time, Ralph sees the flashes
> from the lightening bolts simultaneously.
> - At some time, Paul sees the flash from the front,
> and shortly later, he sees the flash from the aft end.
> - Ralph finds that he is midway between the marks in the ground.
According to SR:
Since Paul is at the midpoint of the train and the flashes did not reach him simultaneously, the flashes were not
absolutely simultaneous.
Since Ralph is midway between the flashes and DOES see them simultaneously, the flashes WERE absolutely simultaneous.
.... so your experiment is impossible.
Your observations assume the flashes were at rest with the ground and moved at c in that frame.
> The above are given facts, and can not be disputed.
> The scenario and observations are obviously possible
> in the real world.
>
> Comment --------------------------------------
> | The only condition for the observations to be
> | possible in the real world is that the speed of
> | light is finite. So Newton, Michelson, Lorentz,
> | Ritz, Einstein and any other sane person accepting
> | that the speed of light is finite would
> | accept that the described observations are
> | possible. They do not depend on any specific
> | theory of physics.
> -----------------------------------------------
They are impossible according to SR...as Ken so wisely pointed out.
> Now the question is what conclusions we can
> draw from the thought experiment.
>
> Comment --------------------------------------
> | The interpretation of the observations is
> | dependent of what assumptions are made
> | for the propagation of light. So different
> | theories of physics will give different
> | conclusions for what the observations imply.
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> Version #1
> ----------
> Assumptions:
> Assume Galilean relativity, and that the speed
> of light is c relative to Ralph.
> Question #1:
> What must Ralph and Paul conclude about
> the temporal sequence of the lightening bolts?
> Paul and Ralph may exchange information about
> their observations before they draw their conclusions.
Nothing unusual. The flashes were horizontally at rest with the ground, not the train.
> Version #2
> ----------
> Assumptions:
> Assume Galilean relativity, and that the speed
> of light is c relative to Paul.
> Question #2:
> What must Ralph and Paul conclude about
> the temporal sequence of the lightening bolts?
> Paul and Ralph may exchange information about
> their observations before they draw their conclusions.
If the speed of light is c relative to Paul then both sources must have been at rest with Paul...in other words, you
have now assumed the sources of the flashes were at rest with Paul....that is the flashes struck the train. Since they
did not reach Paul simultaneously, he cannot be in the middle ...and so your question is nonsense.
> Version #3
> ----------
> Assumptions:
> Assume that the speed of light is invariant
> (the same in all inertial frames).
> Question #3:
> What must Ralph and Paul conclude about
> the temporal sequence of the lightening bolts?
>
> Question #4
> What does the thought experiment prove about
> the relativity of simultaneity?
>
>
--
HGW
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Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-19 14:56 +0200
Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-19 06:00 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 14:48 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 14:53 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2017-09-19 08:05 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-19 09:09 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2017-09-19 09:35 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-19 10:45 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 22:01 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2017-09-20 07:30 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-20 20:00 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-19 07:55 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-19 14:58 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-20 09:18 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-20 04:48 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-20 13:47 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-20 14:33 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 09:05 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-20 16:07 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 01:24 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 12:22 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 15:28 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 15:40 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-29 09:20 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-29 08:49 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-29 12:08 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-29 05:59 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:22 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:08 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-27 20:30 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-20 20:42 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 08:39 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-21 02:18 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 08:25 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 01:37 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 12:34 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 13:30 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 06:44 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-10-10 00:24 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-22 03:02 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 06:50 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-22 22:23 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 10:08 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-23 04:09 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-23 13:32 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 09:02 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-24 06:31 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-23 19:37 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 07:26 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-24 16:44 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 08:03 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-24 17:35 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 08:26 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 17:36 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-24 18:24 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 07:34 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 15:49 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 07:56 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-25 00:00 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:47 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-25 00:47 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 23:53 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 19:53 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-25 02:58 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:54 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 03:15 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-25 10:19 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:56 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 03:11 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-25 14:43 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 01:26 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 02:06 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-27 08:39 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:52 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 03:18 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-25 10:21 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-25 13:19 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 15:48 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 08:31 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-24 17:46 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-24 09:30 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2017-09-24 08:04 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-24 08:24 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-23 14:11 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 08:53 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-24 02:31 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 16:39 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-24 12:34 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 08:30 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-24 22:32 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 09:41 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-25 02:51 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 15:51 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-25 12:48 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-20 11:13 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-20 02:31 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 02:34 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-20 03:25 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-19 22:40 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 08:08 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 08:46 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 08:33 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-20 00:04 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 00:34 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 00:42 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 10:54 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 08:49 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-20 15:59 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 01:54 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 12:43 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-22 12:56 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-22 11:04 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:36 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 01:38 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-27 20:00 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 12:06 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:30 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:04 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-21 20:36 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 07:21 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-26 21:57 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 20:57 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-26 21:00 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 15:24 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-27 17:39 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 02:52 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-20 10:48 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-20 15:13 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-20 20:19 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-20 20:02 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 09:10 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-21 12:46 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-20 13:14 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2017-09-20 13:27 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-21 09:29 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-21 14:03 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-21 05:19 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Kos Etrakis <uar@ksskkwi.ck> - 2017-09-21 12:42 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-21 07:24 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-21 22:16 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 08:51 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-22 03:02 +0000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-21 20:18 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-21 20:39 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-21 20:42 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 07:49 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-21 23:51 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 09:04 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 09:08 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-22 00:27 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2017-09-22 11:52 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-22 04:05 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:46 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 12:26 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:31 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:01 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-27 20:22 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 12:00 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-22 14:08 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:41 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-27 12:28 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-28 09:32 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-28 03:02 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-22 07:03 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-22 19:55 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 07:42 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-23 06:55 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-24 11:17 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-22 08:30 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-22 13:52 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-22 05:34 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-23 08:05 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-23 15:38 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-24 09:12 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-09-23 16:17 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-24 11:03 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-24 07:11 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-24 07:38 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. HGW <HW@home.net> - 2017-09-25 08:43 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-25 14:38 +0200
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-25 07:15 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-25 07:38 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-09-26 04:20 +1000
Re: Train gedanken - again. gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-26 01:23 -0700
Re: Train gedanken - again. kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-09-24 06:48 -0700
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