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Groups > alt.usage.english > #579239
| From | "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage, misc.writing, soc.culture.usa, talk.politics.misc |
| Subject | Re: 15 million fools |
| Date | 2016-01-04 23:38 +0000 |
| Organization | . |
| Message-ID | <op.yaqml0g286ebyl@red.lan> (permalink) |
| References | (9 earlier) <km6j8bdldoq4307ioqdpromku2frpqjvj5@4ax.com> <op.yaot3ywq86ebyl@red.lan> <4i6l8bd8asvt45mp9gsk6o9crligb2hq06@4ax.com> <op.yap45mm086ebyl@red.lan> <hkol8btrps74fkmef1k4mtmln44arvfgb7@4ax.com> |
Cross-posted to 5 groups.
On Mon, 04 Jan 2016 22:44:47 -0000, Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> wrote: > On Mon, 04 Jan 2016 17:21:12 -0000, "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> wrote: > >> On Mon, 04 Jan 2016 16:56:05 -0000, Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> wrote: >> >> [bandwidth snip] >> >>> Iran no matter HOW much he'd like it to happen. >>> >>> There are no "pure democracies" in the world. Even >>> the classical Athenian experiment with that didn't >>> last very long. Plato was correct when he called >>> democracy a "degenerate system" - it's is a very >>> bad idea to give the uninformed rabble direct >>> and detailed control. >> >> What a stupid viewpoint. > > No, it's the intellegent - and realistic - viewpoint. > >> You're basically saying "don't let other peoples' votes count >> because they aren't as clever as me". Nobody has the right >> to say that. > > Our Founders said it ... and I think they were correct, > at least as far as electing presidents go. "Mob logic" > can be a terrible thing - and you don't want it when > deciding, or electing someone who can decide, to > push the big red button. > > It's not always an issue of "smartness" either, it's > an issue of crowd behavior. There was a line in a > movie some years back ... "A person is smart ; > PEOPLE are dumb panicky dangerous animals". > > We may not LIKE to believe this but it's always been > true (and exploited). Certain safeguards are necessary > and the more money, power and tangible force involved > in the equation the stronger the safeguards must be. > > There are some kinds of people who should never be > allowed to become a US president even if 99.99% of > the voters absolutely LOVE the guy. "Democracy" ? > Nice idea in the abstract, but there are times to be > coldly practical. > > The world has endured meglomaniacs, psychotics, > sociopaths and outright lunatics elevated to positions > of great power far too often. It was a very bad thing > pre-industrial and these days is a literal world-ending > threat. But who gets to decide which people say who is a psychotic? It's all about your point of view. The ONLY fair way is to allow EVERYONE to vote evenly. What you think is mad someone else may think is sensible. If more people think a particular thing is sensible than mad, then it should be deemed sensible. >>> Our respective "representative" systems are intended >>> to alleviate the potential problems of "pure" democracy ... >>> but I think they introduce new routes of abuse/corruption. >>> Also, since the invention of the instant opinion poll, >>> representative systems tend to manifest some of the >>> problems of "pure" democracy as politicians try to please >>> all the people all of the time. >>> >>>> Who has the right to say the majority of the population >>>> isn't clever enough to vote ? >>> >>> In our case it was the Founders themselves. They >>> were very clever men ... and I think honest about >>> their citizens and wise about human nature. The >>> more power vested in an individual, the more layers >>> of insulation required between him and Joe Citizen. >> >> Hmph! Founders indeed. You wrote a decent constitution, >> then completely ignored it by amending it several times > > The amendments, the first 10 anyway, were part of > the deal. No constitition without explicitly spelling out > certain rights. I think that's the only thing that kept > the USA from becoming another Russia or another > Reich. Our 'leaders' labor endlessly to find ways of > reasoning around those enumerated rights - showing > us what the USA would have become if nobody had > bothered writing them down. The will to absolute > power is ALWAYS there. WTF are you on about "part of the deal"? Obviously an amendment means you changed it. The whole point of the constitution is that it should never be tampered with. Why have laws if they only work until somebody deletes them? >>> Now in the UK style of government the position of >>> the PM is not anything the citizens get to vote on >>> directly, if I understand correctly. They elect reps >>> from their favorite parties and the reps of the >>> majority party select a PM from their ranks. This >>> makes those party reps somewhat equivalent >>> to our "electors" ... an extra layer of indirection >>> between citizen and highest executive. >> >> Yip, a right farce. What's worse is the number of representatives >> (MPs) is often nothing like the number of people that voted for that >> party. For example UKIP got three times the number of votes as >> SNP, yet SNP got fifty times more MPs! > > Ok ... that's really weird ............ > > How do they justify that ? Size of represented area ? > Sheer number of voters per area ? Traditional > importance of area ? Nothing to do with area or > population ? Average penis dimensions ??? "First past the post", the stupidest voting system ever. The UK is divided into sections, and an MP is voted in by residents of each section. The party that gets in is the one with the most MPs. So if as in the case of UKIP, they have a decent vote throughout the whole country, but spread out, then they get fuck all MPs. But SNP has them all concentrated in one area, so they get more MPs with less votes. If an area has a small number of votes for party X, then that party doesn't get their MP there, and those votes are completely wasted. >>>> Those people "inserting a layer of smarter people" >>>> just THINK they're smarter. >>> >>> In the 1780s "electors" really WOULD have been >>> choosen from the "smarter", better-educated, >>> subportion of the population. With a broader, >>> more worldly view and likely training in "liberal >>> arts" - including logic, philosophy and maybe >>> theology - when it came to running a country >>> properly, they would be the better choice. >>> >>> In the 2000s ... um .... I still too often see where >>> Joe Citizen is lacking. Even worse it's become a >>> much "bigger world", a much more politically and >>> economically complicated world, since the 1700s. >>> Joe Citizen has not risen to the challenge. Even >>> the internet hasn't helped ... simply added a larger >>> volume of mis/dis-information. >>> >>> Alas the "better" people you would want to be your >>> representatives, presidents and electors also have >>> fallen behind the proverbial curve. Statesmen are >>> few ... self-serving, self-absorbed, myopic pinheads >>> are far more common. There is little difference >>> now between "better" and the rabble and thus >>> bad decisions have increased. >>> >>> Thinking about it all, clearly there IS NO "perfect" >>> system, no "perfect" form or shape of government. >>> Nothing even close to "perfect". We get a choice >>> between "horrible" and "not QUITE so horrible". >>> A large part of this problem is inescapable - it >>> is *people* - 8 billion constantly-mutating notions >>> of the way things ought to be. We are a species >>> that actually enjoys congitive dissonance and >>> believing six impossible things before breakfast. >>> >>> So, until the Robot Overlords arrive, we're just stuck. >> >> The "masses" must have more choice, it's that simple. > > I'd back more choice for *some* things ... "lifestyle > issues" and other minimally-dangerous individual- > centered items. *Dangerous* things however - big > money, military force, international relations - better > to leave things as they are. Bullshit! We are currently throwing away money bombing countries when most of us don't want to! > Joe Citizen doesn't have the time nor inclination to > study the facts and details of almost anything the > State is doing. He doesn't have the resources to > do a good job of it even if he was so-inclined. He > cannot be a chemist and physicist and engineer > and biologist and ecologist and geologist and > economist and foreign-policy insider and .... well ... > if he voted correctly it would be by pure accident. > > So instead he gets to vote for people who "seem > trustworthy" (often aren't), more of a "gut" reaction, > personality-appraisal - can be done with fewer > resources/info/training. Besides, all his "choices" > will have been vetted by the Big Money people, > not much difference between them. Those "trustworthy" folk have biases. Putting it to the vote of the masses would be way better. -- Peter is listening to "Ministry of Sound - The Sound of Dubstep 4"
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15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2015-12-30 18:42 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "John Varela" <newlamps@verizon.net> - 2015-12-30 19:12 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2015-12-30 19:21 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Simon Grushka <s.grushka83@gmail.com> - 2016-01-01 14:14 -0800
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2015-12-30 22:19 -0500
Re: 15 million fools James Hogg <Jas.Hogg@gOUTmail.com> - 2015-12-31 09:22 +0100
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-31 04:31 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2015-12-31 17:13 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2015-12-31 17:12 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2015-12-31 22:00 -0500
Re: 15 million fools Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2016-01-01 17:47 +1100
Re: 15 million fools musika <mUs1Ka@NOSPAMexcite.com> - 2016-01-01 08:16 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2016-01-01 19:30 +1100
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-01 06:41 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 14:59 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-01 19:44 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 19:48 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-01 22:24 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 22:46 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-02 12:28 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Janet <nobody@home.org> - 2016-01-02 15:04 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2016-01-02 12:03 -0500
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-02 20:51 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-02 20:58 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-04 09:02 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 19:14 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2016-01-03 19:14 +0100
Re: 15 million fools the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> - 2016-01-03 19:19 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2016-01-04 09:02 +1100
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 19:57 +0000
Re: 15 million fools pensive hamster <pensive_hamster@hotmail.co.uk> - 2016-01-01 12:10 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 20:18 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-01 22:27 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 22:47 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-01 20:17 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-02 20:48 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-01 12:55 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 21:05 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 21:09 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-01 22:29 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 22:51 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-02 12:29 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-02 20:53 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-04 09:03 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 19:14 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-05 10:31 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-05 07:12 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-06 00:14 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-06 00:14 +0000
Re: 15 million fools bill van <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> - 2016-01-01 17:02 -0800
Re: 15 million fools musika <mUs1Ka@NOSPAMexcite.com> - 2016-01-02 01:43 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-02 20:42 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 14:58 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-01 21:52 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-02 20:42 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-02 21:54 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-03 16:09 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-01 21:47 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-02 20:42 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 14:57 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-01 21:54 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-02 20:44 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-02 21:55 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-03 16:10 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-03 11:09 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-03 19:27 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-03 17:32 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 00:25 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-04 11:56 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 17:21 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-04 17:44 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 23:38 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-04 23:12 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-05 22:16 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-05 22:04 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-06 20:09 +0000
Re: 15 million fools pensive hamster <pensive_hamster@hotmail.co.uk> - 2016-01-06 11:10 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2015-12-31 17:11 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2015-12-31 22:36 -0500
Re: 15 million fools Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2016-01-01 18:12 +1100
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-01 06:48 -0800
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-01 22:17 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 11:00 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-01 19:46 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 19:54 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Richard Yates <richard@yatesguitar.com> - 2016-01-01 12:27 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 20:34 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-01 12:57 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-01 21:05 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-01 22:41 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-02 20:46 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-02 21:52 -0500
Re: 15 million fools RH Draney <dadoctah@cox.net> - 2016-01-02 22:03 -0700
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-02 21:48 -0800
Re: 15 million fools Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2016-01-03 17:34 +1100
Re: 15 million fools Janet <nobody@home.org> - 2016-01-03 11:31 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-03 17:40 -0500
Re: 15 million fools Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2016-01-04 10:13 +1100
Re: 15 million fools Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-03 16:15 -0800
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-05 16:43 -0500
Re: 15 million fools Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2016-01-05 17:36 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-03 18:36 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-03 11:11 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-03 19:28 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-03 13:47 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <mail@peterduncanson.net> - 2016-01-04 00:07 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 00:31 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 00:29 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-04 09:13 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-04 04:17 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 19:16 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 19:15 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-05 10:24 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-06 00:13 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-06 13:42 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-06 19:04 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-04 04:19 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 19:16 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-04 11:58 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 23:30 +0000
Re: 15 million fools charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> - 2016-01-04 20:02 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Peter Young <pnyoung@ormail.co.uk> - 2016-01-04 20:10 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2016-01-04 13:17 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 23:31 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Reinhold {Rey} Aman <aman@sonic.net> - 2016-01-03 18:18 -0800
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-03 17:54 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 00:27 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Mr. B1ack <nowhere@nada.net> - 2016-01-04 17:58 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 23:40 +0000
Re: 15 million fools GordonD <g.davie@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-04 09:06 +0000
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-04 19:15 +0000
Re: 15 million fools Charles Bishop <ctbishop@earthlink.net> - 2016-01-02 17:29 -0800
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2016-01-03 16:09 +0000
Re: 15 million fools CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-31 08:31 -0500
Re: 15 million fools "Mr Macaw" <no@spam.com> - 2015-12-31 16:46 +0000
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