Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #26917

Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave

From rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.arch.embedded
Subject Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave
Date 2017-06-21 17:14 -0400
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <oience$art$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (20 earlier) <oidgfv$fa$1@dont-email.me> <oie7at$h6f$1@dont-email.me> <mUx2B.4296$C96.3462@fx01.am4> <oiee0s$8p9$1@dont-email.me> <lSA2B.12416$hc7.5082@fx41.am4>

Show all headers | View raw

Tom Gardner wrote on 6/21/2017 4:41 PM:
> On 21/06/17 19:34, rickman wrote:
>> Tom Gardner wrote on 6/21/2017 1:19 PM:
>>> On 21/06/17 17:40, rickman wrote:
>>>> David Brown wrote on 6/21/2017 6:10 AM:
>>>>> Yes, you basically have a SERDES system for each of the I/O pins, and a
>>>>> whole array of hardware timers that can trigger the transfers.
>>>>
>>>> I think we are starting to see why the XMOS devices are so expensive, very
>>>> extensive dedicated hardware.  Too bad they don't have a few programmable
>>>> digital blocks that can actually do something useful.
>>>
>>> The SERDES and timers are very simple, so I'm unconvinced
>>> they are the reason for any perceived expense.
>>>
>>> Have a look in the "ports" reference I previously gave you
>>> https://www.xmos.com/published/xs1-ports-introduction?version=latest
>>> You will see that the
>>>   - SERDES is only a shift register plus buffer register,
>>>   - each /port/ timer is only 16 bits and is constantly
>>>     ticking, plus a register and comparator to enable
>>>     timed i/o
>>>   - there's a pinseq/pinsneq register and comparator
>>>
>>> Scarcely enough to dominate the chip area, especially when
>>> you consider the memory and xCONNECT switch fabric.
>>
>> So there is the equivalent of three 16 bit
>> counter/timer/comparator/shifter/whatever for *each* port pin?  That may not
>> dominate the chip area, but it is going to add up fast.  I'll bet it is
>> larger
>> than a set of fixed peripherals in low end MCUs that can be sold for $1.
>> Just
>> how much logic do you think is in an SPI port?
>
> No.
>
> Read the reference supplied; the relevant bits are
> only 9 pages - and are in clear and simple English.

So what you wrote is not correct?


>>> Without knowledge, my guess is that the switch fabric will
>>> have a far larger area than the port logic, just as in FPGAs
>>> the interconnects are far larger than the IO cells.
>>
>> Xilinx used to say they sell you the routing and give the logic away for
>> free.
>> What's your point?  How do FPGAs come into the cost basis of the XMOS?
>
> It is the same principals and cost drivers at work. Your
> comment indicates you/Xilinx see the similarity.

This gets tiring.  I don't know what "comment" of mine you mean and I 
*don't* see the similarity.  The interconnect in an FPGA is at least an 
order of magnitude more complex than the I/O routing in an MCU.


>> The real issue is that they just can't compete in the low price end of MCUs
>> where I feel they would be most useful.
>
> .... to you.

Ok, I'll spell it out.  At the low end the multiple processors can implement 
separate tasks on separate processors.  This works great simplifying the 
otherwise complex issues in emulating parallel processing on a sequential 
processor.  Fine.  A more complex set of tasks will typically require a more 
powerful processor although complexity is not synonymous with performance 
requirements.  Once the XMOS device is fully utilized with one process per 
processor additional tasks require adding back in the complexity of 
emulating parallel processing on a single processor.  So the primary 
advantage of the XMOS processor end once the tasking is complex enough, i.e. 
high end.

So clearly the XMOS is less useful at the high end and more useful at the 
low end.  If they make some adjustments to the design/architecture to allow 
low *cost* units to be sold, that would only open more markets for them. 
One nice thing about the low end is that while you don't make tons of money 
on even a fairly large number of units sold, it pays to keep the doors open 
and the machinery running.  Then they can pursue other products that have 
different economics and may be less stable financially, good one year and 
not so good the next.


>> But they have their niche and I guess
>> they aren't going anywhere soon.  I wonder what it would take for the XMOS
>> concept to be scaled up to cover more at the high end?
>
> A key decision for /all/ businesses is where /not/ to compete.

So a processor company shouldn't try to compete in the processor business. 
Good thing ARM didn't try that approach.  They definitely started at the 
small end and worked upward.  I understand they are making significant 
inroads to servers these days.

I am feeling that this horse has been flogged quite enough.  It's not going 
to get much deader and I don't think we are expressing much in the way of 
new thoughts.

-- 

Rick C

Back to comp.arch.embedded | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave John Speth <johnspeth@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-14 10:44 -0700
  Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-14 16:30 -0700
  Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 21:54 -0400
    Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-15 08:01 +0100
      Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 12:13 -0400
        Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-15 18:01 +0100
          Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 16:52 -0400
            Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-15 23:37 +0200
              Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 18:15 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-16 09:25 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-16 13:52 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-18 22:56 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-19 00:21 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 09:02 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-19 08:36 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 14:47 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-19 09:23 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 15:34 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-20 00:16 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-20 09:49 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-20 22:44 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-21 12:10 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 12:40 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-21 18:19 +0100
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 14:34 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-21 21:41 +0100
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 17:14 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave edward.ming.lee@gmail.com - 2017-06-21 13:54 -0700
            Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-15 23:33 +0100
              Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 23:12 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-16 07:05 +0100
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-16 02:27 -0400
  Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-06-14 23:17 -0500
  Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-15 08:03 +0100
  Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-15 09:14 +0200
    Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-15 08:25 +0100
      Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-15 10:02 +0200
        Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-06-15 16:25 +0800
          Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-15 10:32 +0200
            Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-06-15 21:48 +0800
          Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-15 10:09 +0100
        Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-15 09:41 +0100
          Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-15 13:04 +0200
            Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-15 12:31 +0100
              Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-15 14:20 +0200
            Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 17:46 -0400
              Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-16 13:21 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-06-16 13:55 +0000
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-16 16:34 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-06-16 15:40 +0000
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 00:47 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-06-21 15:47 +0000
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-21 19:15 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-06-21 15:50 +0000
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-21 19:16 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-06-21 18:00 +0000
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-22 11:24 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 12:12 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-16 14:22 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 03:15 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-19 00:54 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 10:30 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-06-19 12:54 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 13:49 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-19 09:28 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-19 09:19 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 16:23 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-19 23:57 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-20 12:36 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-20 08:20 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-19 14:44 +0000
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-06-19 21:39 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-19 14:59 -0500
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-06-20 09:25 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-20 11:50 -0500
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-20 12:37 +0000
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 22:59 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-20 00:12 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-06-20 10:25 +0300
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-20 10:44 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-06-20 02:36 -0700
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-20 11:25 +0100
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-06-20 13:49 +0300
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-20 12:54 +0100
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-06-20 16:09 +0300
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-20 15:24 +0100
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-20 17:46 +0100
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-20 22:28 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-21 00:58 +0100
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-21 13:08 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-20 16:28 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-20 12:58 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-20 12:57 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-06-20 14:19 +0300
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-20 16:19 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-20 12:12 +0000
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-20 16:48 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2017-06-20 21:16 +0100
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-20 23:15 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2017-06-21 07:30 +0100
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 12:54 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-21 19:29 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-21 15:05 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-21 21:34 +0100
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-06-21 18:04 -1000
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-06-22 10:26 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 11:56 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-06-22 09:20 +0000
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Wasell <from_usenet@wasell.eu> - 2017-06-22 14:02 +0200
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 11:59 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 11:58 -0400
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-22 08:19 +0000
                Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-19 09:53 +0100
        Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-15 10:16 +0100
  Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave John Speth <johnspeth@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-15 13:56 -0700
    Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-15 14:41 -0700
      Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave John Speth <johnspeth@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-15 15:08 -0700
        Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-16 11:34 -0700
    Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 18:20 -0400
    Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave edward.ming.lee@gmail.com - 2017-06-21 07:58 -0700
  Re: MCU mimicking a SPI flash slave Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-06-19 12:23 -0400

csiph-web