Re: Portable Assembly

From	Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: Portable Assembly
Date	2017-05-27 18:42 -0700
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<ogd9n2$on9$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <ogcr17$ft7$1@dont-email.me> <ogcvq0$at$1@dont-email.me> <ogd11e$3rd$1@dont-email.me> <ogd4in$cqf$1@dont-email.me> <ogd5v5$g3u$1@dont-email.me>

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On 5/27/2017 5:38 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>> ... This is probably
>> one of the most maddening positions to be in:  having *a* product
>> and facing a huge re-development just to come up with the NEXT
>> product in its evolution.
>
> Exactly this situation forced my hand to create vpa (virtual processor
> assembly language). I had several megabytes of good sources written in
> 68k assembly and the 68k line was going to an end. Sure I could have
> used it for another few years but it was obvious I had to move
> forward so I did.

Its one of the overwhelming reasons I opt for HLL's -- I can *buy* a
tool that will convert my code to the target of my choosing.  :>

>>>> OToOH, we are seeing levels of complexity now -- even in SoC's -- that
>>>> make "big" projects much more commonplace.  I'd hate to have to
>>>> recode a cell-phone for a different choice of processor if I'd not
>>>> made plans for that contingency in the first place!
>>>
>>> Well phones do not have the flash as part of the SoC, I said
>>> "in the MCU flash", meaning on the same chip. This is what I regard
>>> as a "small" thingie, can't see what it will have to do to take
>>> up more that 3-4 months of my time as long as I know what I want
>>> to program.
>>
>> But you can pick devices with *megabytes* of on-board (on-chip) FLASH,
>> nowadays:
>>     <https://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/ATSAM4SD32C>
>> It seems fairly obvious that more real-estate will find its way into
>> devices' "memory" allocations.
>
> Well this part is closer to a "big thing" but not there yet. 160k RAM
> is by no means much nowadays, try buffering a 100 Mbps Ethernet link
> on that for example. It is still for stuff you can do within a few
> months if you know what you want to do. The high level language will
> take care of clogging up the 2M flash if anything :D.

I don't think you realize just how clever modern compilers have become.
I've taken portions of old ASM projects and tried to code them in HLL's
to see what the "penalty" would be.  It was alarming to see how much
cleverer they have become (over the course of many decades!).

Of course, you need to be working on a processor that is suitable to
their use to truly benefit from their cleverness -- I doubt an 8x300
compiler would beat my ASM code!  :>

> Although I must say that my devices (MPC5200b based) have 2M flash
> and can boot a fully functional dps off it... including most of the
> MCA software. It takes a disk to get the complete functionality
> but much of it - OS, windows, shell and all commands etc.
> fit in (just between 100 and 200k are used for "BIOS" purposes,
> the rest of the 2M is a "disk").
> This with 64M RAM of course - and no wallpapers, you need a proper
> disk for that :-).

I use the FLASH solely for initial POST, a secure netboot protocol, a
*tiny* RTOS and "fail safe/secure" hooks to ensure a "mindless" device
can't get into -- or remain in -- an unsafe state (including the field
devices likely tethered to it).

[A device may not be easily accessible to a human user!]

Once "enough" of the hardware is known to be functional, a second level
boot drags in more diagnostics and a more functional protocol stack.

A third level boot drags in the *real* OS and real network stack.

After that, other aspects of the "environment" can be loaded and,
finally, the "applications".

[Of course, any of these steps can fail/timeout and leave me with
a device with *just* the functionality of the FLASH]

Even this level of functionality deferral isn't enough to keep
me from having to "customize" the FLASH in each type of device
(cuz they have different I/O complements).  So, big incentive
to come up with a more universal set of "peripherals" just to
cut down on the number of different designs.

> However I doubt anyone writing in C could fit a tenth of that
> in 2M flash which is why it is there; it is just way more than really
> necessary for the RAM that part has if programming would not be
> done at high level.

Thread

Portable Assembly rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 15:39 -0400
  Re: Portable Assembly Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-05-27 21:05 +0000
    Re: Portable Assembly Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2017-05-27 21:29 +0000
    Re: Portable Assembly upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-05-28 00:36 +0300
      Re: Portable Assembly Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-05-27 21:56 +0000
        Re: Portable Assembly Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-05-28 14:36 +0200
      Re: Portable Assembly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-29 09:53 +0200
  Re: Portable Assembly Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-05-27 16:17 -0500
    Re: Portable Assembly Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-28 00:31 +0300
      Re: Portable Assembly Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-05-27 22:52 +0100
        Re: Portable Assembly Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-05-27 21:58 +0000
          Re: Portable Assembly upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-05-28 07:37 +0300
            Re: Portable Assembly rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 01:28 -0400
            Re: Portable Assembly Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-28 07:33 +0100
              Re: Portable Assembly rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 03:22 -0400
                Re: Portable Assembly Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-28 08:49 +0100
                Re: Portable Assembly upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-05-28 15:03 +0300
          Re: Portable Assembly Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-05-28 12:26 +0300
        Re: Portable Assembly Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-28 01:04 +0300
        Re: Portable Assembly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-29 10:43 +0200
          Re: Portable Assembly Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2017-05-31 10:19 +0300
            Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-31 01:49 -0700
            Re: Portable Assembly Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-05-31 15:56 +0300
        Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-29 02:33 -0700
          Re: Portable Assembly upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-05-29 23:46 +0300
            Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-29 13:54 -0700
      Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-27 15:52 -0700
        Re: Portable Assembly Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-28 02:14 +0300
          Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-27 17:14 -0700
            Re: Portable Assembly Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-28 03:38 +0300
              Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-27 18:42 -0700
      Re: Portable Assembly Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2017-05-28 18:45 +0200
        Re: Portable Assembly Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-28 20:47 +0300
          Re: Portable Assembly Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2017-05-29 18:43 +0200
            Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-29 10:23 -0700
            Re: Portable Assembly "Boudewijn Dijkstra" <sp4mtr4p.boudewijn@indes.com> - 2017-05-30 16:31 +0200
        Re: Portable Assembly Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-05-29 01:59 +0000
          Re: Portable Assembly Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-29 05:21 +0300
      Re: Portable Assembly Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-05-28 22:04 -0500
        Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-29 02:57 -0700
      Re: Portable Assembly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-29 11:00 +0200
        Re: Portable Assembly Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-29 15:08 +0300
          Re: Portable Assembly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-29 15:06 +0200
            Re: Portable Assembly Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-29 20:02 +0300
              Re: Portable Assembly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-29 23:13 +0200
                Re: Portable Assembly Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-30 16:53 +0300
                Re: Portable Assembly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-31 11:36 +0200
                Re: Portable Assembly Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-06-01 22:43 +0300
                Re: Portable Assembly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-02 13:27 +0200
          Re: Portable Assembly Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-05-29 13:48 +0000
    Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-27 15:46 -0700
    Re: Portable Assembly Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-28 23:59 -0500
  Re: Portable Assembly Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-28 00:23 +0300
  Re: Portable Assembly jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-05-27 16:54 -0700
  Re: Portable Assembly Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-05-29 17:23 -0400
  Re: Portable Assembly "Boudewijn Dijkstra" <sp4mtr4p.boudewijn@indes.com> - 2017-06-02 17:03 +0200
    Re: Portable Assembly Mike Perkins <spam@spam.com> - 2017-06-05 15:39 +0100
      Re: Portable Assembly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-05 18:10 +0200
      Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-05 09:10 -0700
        Re: Portable Assembly George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-06-06 00:24 -0400
          Re: Portable Assembly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-06 11:05 +0200
          Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-06 07:03 -0700
            Re: Portable Assembly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-06 16:58 +0200
              Re: Portable Assembly Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-06-06 21:26 +0300
            Re: Portable Assembly George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-06-06 16:42 -0400
              Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-06 23:16 -0700
                Re: Portable Assembly George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-06-08 06:38 -0400
                Re: Portable Assembly Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-06-08 15:58 +0300
                Re: Portable Assembly upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-06-08 21:34 +0300
                Re: Portable Assembly Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-06-10 15:27 -0500
                Re: Portable Assembly Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-06-10 15:23 -0500
                Re: Portable Assembly Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-08 14:50 +0100
                Re: Portable Assembly Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-06-08 17:38 +0300
                Re: Portable Assembly Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-08 16:37 +0100
                Re: Portable Assembly George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-06-09 14:14 -0400
                Re: Portable Assembly Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-06-09 22:25 +0100
                Re: Portable Assembly Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-06-10 09:54 +1000
                Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-09 00:06 -0700
                Re: Portable Assembly George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-06-09 22:14 -0400
                Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-09 22:50 -0700
                Re: Portable Assembly George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-06-10 21:01 -0400
                Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-11 00:39 -0700
                Re: Portable Assembly George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-06-12 23:27 -0400
                Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-12 22:42 -0700
                Re: Portable Assembly Ed Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2017-06-13 14:24 -0700
                Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-13 21:57 -0700
                Re: Portable Assembly Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-06-14 13:26 +0800
                Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-13 23:58 -0700
                Re: Portable Assembly Ed Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2017-06-19 06:48 -0700
                Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-19 16:45 -0700
                Re: Portable Assembly Ed Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2017-06-20 15:07 -0700
                Re: Portable Assembly Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-21 07:37 -0700
              Re: Portable Assembly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-07 09:20 +0200
          Re: Portable Assembly Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-06-07 00:30 +0300
            Re: Portable Assembly George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-06-07 02:02 -0400

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