Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!!

From	Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!!
Date	2017-05-17 21:57 +0800
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<ofhkmh$bb8$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <N1USA.14492$8r1.3523@fx42.am4> <ofh332$26n$2@dont-email.me> <dNUSA.16638$C56.1284@fx34.am4> <ofh7fs$g96$1@dont-email.me> <ofh9u9$ntk$1@dont-email.me>

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AT Wednesday 17 May 2017 18:54, Don Y wrote:

> On 5/17/2017 3:12 AM, Reinhardt Behm wrote:
>> AT Wednesday 17 May 2017 17:32, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>
>>> On 17/05/17 09:57, Reinhardt Behm wrote:
>>>> AT Wednesday 17 May 2017 16:42, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 17/05/17 01:56, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/16/2017 3:51 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>>>>>> The other dysfunctional aspect of unit tests is that,
>>>>>>> while they are very useful when making incremental
>>>>>>> improvements during design, they can be a real
>>>>>>> impediment in a few months/years time. The problem is
>>>>>>> that over time people forget which tests demonstrate
>>>>>>> required properties, and which are merely ensuring
>>>>>>> behaviour of implementation artifacts. At that point
>>>>>>> people are afraid to make changes that break tests,
>>>>>>> even if the tests are unimportant. At that point the
>>>>>>> codebase has become ossified.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But that's true any time you (attempt to) nail down
>>>>>> an aspect of a design.  Moreso if you don't provide a
>>>>>> rationale for WHY the requirement (whether it be from a
>>>>>> spec or a test) was imposed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course. Nonetheless, it happens - and zealots
>>>>> sometimes refuse to admit it.
>>>>
>>>> Therefor any good development process demands that requirements
>>>> (high-level, or low-level) must be traceable to system requirements or
>>>> must be marked as design decisions. Then you have the WHY.
>>>> A test can not be the source of a requirement. A test should also be
>>>> traceable to sys-reqs.
>>>> And hopefully the sys-reqs are good.
>>>
>>> We are in violent agreement.
>>>
>>> But my point is about the XP/Agile/TDD/Unit Test
>>> zealots that overstate the benefits of those
>>> techniques and ignore their dysfunctional aspects.
>>
>> No disagreement here.
>>
>> When I hear those people, the method seems to be:
>> We don't know where we are going, but let's just start walking and every
>> day we do a sprint.
> 
> Yes.  It's the same sort of misplaced attitude that leads to folks sitting
> down on Day One and writing code -- cuz they know they won't have enough
> time to get it done, so best get started ASAP (despite not knowing WHAT
> they are writing)
> 
>> For me that is the best recipe for disaster.
>> But I must confess I sometimes do something like this: When the customer
>> does not really know what he wants or I myself need to get a feeling how
>> a useful user interface should be. Then I do prototyping this way. Later
>> the sys-reqs are derived from these prototypes and the software is
>> developed again according to these reqs. The prototyping-code goes into a
>> CVS-branch called "playground".
> 
> I write user manuals, now, instead of specifications.  They have to
> address all of the same information that is presented in a specification
> -- cuz the user needs to know why/when this "error" will be thrown, or
> that constraint imposed, etc.
> 
> It's also a great way to anticipate unnecessary complexity forced on the
> user.  Or, a brittle interface (Why does he need to tell me his name
> BEFORE he tells me his age?  Why do I need to KNOW those facts in that
> order??).
> 
> If you place yourself in the user's shoes ("I only know what I have
> *read*, up to this point!") then it also helps you anticipate the
> questions/uncertainties that the user will encounter while using the
> product/device/system ("ah, he doesn't YET understand that there are FREE
> balls in addition to the balls allocated at the start of the game!")
> 
> And, it gives you a systematic way of challenging yourself as to the
> constraints that you are imposing:  "What happens if the user doesn't
> comply with this?  What do I do?  How do I tell him he's deviated
> from the requirements?"
> 
> You're going to EVENTUALLY have to convert your specifications into
> a User Manual.  So, why not get it out of the way?  This lets other
> folks "pretend" to be using this (eventual) product/device/system
> long before it is actually reified.  So, they can *imagine* the
> sorts of things that might go wrong, expose flaws in your document, etc.
> 
> Instead of having to actually *build*/prototype it and hope they
> stumble on those same problems by "poking REAL buttons" (instead
> of hypothetical buttons)

No problem with this. The sys-reqs should just convey what the system does 
or should do. Your method of writing a "user manual" makes a some sense to 
me. As you rite it might help to find problems in the reqs. Thus help to 
create correct reqs.

My main point is that there should be a clearly defined spec for the system. 
Whether this is prose or what you call legalese is not so important. The 
spec I write are also more prose than legalese. But I need something that I 
can also easily use to develop test cases from. I am not sure how to easily 
do that and be sure to have covered everything. It could make a gap analysis 
more complicated.

-- 
Reinhardt

Thread

[OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-16 13:49 -0500
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-16 19:04 +0000
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:14 -0700
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-16 14:41 -0500
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 14:01 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2017-05-16 14:42 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-16 17:09 -0500
          Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 16:42 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 09:00 +1000
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! eric.jacobsen@ieee.org - 2017-05-16 20:17 +0000
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-16 15:24 -0500
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 22:05 +0100
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-16 17:11 -0500
          Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 23:51 +0100
            Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-16 18:32 -0500
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 09:41 +1000
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 09:35 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-17 19:03 +1000
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 10:31 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-17 23:07 +1000
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 09:41 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 10:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 10:34 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 15:59 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:04 +0100
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:02 +0100
            Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 17:56 -0700
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 09:42 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-05-17 16:57 +0800
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 10:32 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:12 +0800
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-17 03:54 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-05-17 21:57 +0800
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-17 09:36 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-05-17 18:07 +0300
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-17 10:44 -0500
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-17 09:47 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-17 10:18 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-05-17 20:25 +0300
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-17 12:01 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-17 10:25 -0500
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:22 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-17 12:36 -0500
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:45 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-17 03:42 -0700
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-05-16 15:04 -0700
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 15:30 -0700
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-05-16 20:02 -0400
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 20:40 -0400
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Randy Yates <randyy@garnerundergroundinc.com> - 2017-05-17 09:12 -0400
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-17 10:02 -0500
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:11 +0100
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-17 12:21 -0500
          Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:36 +0100
            Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-17 12:43 -0500
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:55 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:57 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-17 13:28 -0500
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 20:08 +0100
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! boB K7IQ <boB@everett.wa> - 2017-05-17 21:30 -0700
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-18 00:03 -0500
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 08:18 +0100
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! boB K7IQ <boB@everett.wa> - 2017-05-18 22:56 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Vassilis Spiliopoulos <vassilis@vask1lux.de> - 2017-05-19 14:31 +0300
          Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-19 10:39 -0500
            Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Vassilis Spiliopoulos <vassilis@vask1lux.de> - 2017-05-19 23:02 +0300
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-19 13:12 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2017-05-19 15:00 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-19 16:05 -0700
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! boB K7IQ <boB@everett.wa> - 2017-05-21 01:46 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Vassilis Spiliopoulos <vassilis@vask1lux.de> - 2017-05-21 17:31 +0300
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2017-05-21 13:31 -0500
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-21 16:47 -0400

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