Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > sci.electronics.design > #454806

Re: ACbrrr monitoring

Show all headers | View raw

On 4/2/2017 9:26 AM, Neon John wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 11:17:12 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> Don, I think that at this point you're just arguing to be arguing.

I'm arguing for something in which I believe.  Namely, that real-time
monitoring of <things> produces useful information BEFORE that
information would otherwise be "collected" (e.g., by a service call).

An admittedly dated paper
<http://aceee.org/files/proceedings/2002/data/papers/SS02_Panel1_Paper05.pdf>
    "Conclusions
     + Contractors are willing to put forth the effort necessary to
       make sure air conditioning systems are operating within manufacturers’
       refrigerant charge specifications, once they are taught to do it
       correctly and are held to an easy means of checking their work.
[Note that contractors only got *involved* when the user CALLED for service]
     + 65% of the residential systems tested required repairs.
     + 71% of the light commercial systems tested required repairs.
     + 57% of the systems were outside specification for refrigerant level.
     + Above 76 degrees outdoor temperature, residential humidity ratios
       average above 0.01 lbs. per lb. of dry air.
     + The current temperature split method of identifying units with low
       airflow is flawed and should be revised to eliminate biases associated
       with the conditions at the time the measurements are made

Elsewhere (same reference):
    "Field surveys indicate if charge and airflow were corrected within
    achievable limits in residential AC systems, seasonal efficiencies
    would increase an average of 16%.  Effects on peak efficiency are
    also significant. Previous studies have found newly installed air
    conditioning systems also experience problems with refrigerant charge
    and airflow. Even units that are installed correctly develop charge and
    airflow problems over time.
Note the systems described there only encounters data gathered by an on-site
technician (i.e., not real-time) -- so, the user had either NOTICED a
problem (and called for service) or called for PM and the contractor
stumbled onto the problem (by following the guidelines in the paper).

>> But, that doesn't invalidate the concept of instrumenting those plants
>> and installing local expert systems to advise the "users" of recommended
>> PM as well as anticipatory and reactionary diagnostics.
>>
>> Doing it in an existing "dumb" installation is costly -- because there are no
>> mechanisms by which the kit can talk to the user.  The interface is just
>> a set of switches (heat/cool/fan/off) and settings (temperature).
>>
>> *And*, because the kit can't talk to anything ELSE that could assist it
>> in determining the efficacy of its operation.  It doesn't know how hot/cold
>> it is, outside.  Or, if the wind is blowing.  Or, if it is humid.  Or, even
>> if the *sun* is up!
>
> So can we agree that predictive failure instrumentation on "dumb"
> units is impossible?

You can't say that.  Have you had your "dumb" unit instrumented, 24/7/365
and had anyone/anything WATCHING that data?  Or, collecting that data from
other identical models?  What other observations would a "smarter" device
need to improve its assessment of the health, efficiency and life expectancy
of itself?  What outside the extents of the ACbrrr itself can bear on
performance -- that the ACbrrr vendor doesn't consider practical to instrument?

Does his brand-fangled new unit know that the reason the system's
performance suffers in THIS room is because the exposed windows
let too much afternoon sun into the space?  Can it talk with it's
peer (split) in the ADJOINING ROOM to "compare notes":  "Gee, why
is your duty cycle so much different from mine?"   Or, advise the
homeowner of those differences and likely causes?  ("Check Engine:
code 123442989:  excessive performance differential vs. other
co-located units.  Call for service.")

*Do* they note that they've been "off" for the past week and can
they deduce that the homeowner may have switched on the swamp cooler,
instead, to address cooling needs?  And, the incredibly high indoor
humidity -- differing considerably from that measured outside the
home -- is due to the moisture deliberately introduced to the living
space?  Or, that the misguided homeowner has been attempting to use
both cooling technologies at nearly the same time (use swamp until
it can't keep up; then switch on the ACbrrr).

[There are people who *do* this -- because nothing has told them
that it is counterproductive]

Just how much can those "smart" devices say with that "check engine"
light (and the intervention of a technician at a service call)?  :>

>> It can't talk to other such units -- directly or indirectly via a shared
>> (remote) knowledge base:   "Gee, this model ACbrrr seems to exhibit the
>> following failure mode(s) in these usage conditions..."
>>
>> Build more efficient ACbrrrs that continue to be isolated ISLANDS and
>> the problem will persist.  The "thing" that will tie them together will
>> be the HVAC contractor showing up when YOURS shits the bed.  Because YOURS
>> won't be able to know what to look for in itself and its environs nor to
>> learn from the experiences of other similar/identical units.
>
> The major manufacturers are doing just that.  There's nothing really
> to be gained from communicating a potential failure to the user.  The
> only thing he could do with that information is call the service tech.
> A "call for service" light (in addition to the filter light), the
> equivalent of a "check engine" light on the thermostat is all that is
> necessary.

So, a service call to change a filter?  Or, clean the condenser coils?
Assume this *is* covered under warranty.  Makes you wonder how much
higher the sell price was to accommodate these EXPECTED future actions!

> The tech will come out at no cost to the owner because of the 10 year
> warranty, plug in his diagnostic set and see what "code" caused the
> service light.  Exactly like it's done in the automotive world.

... for folks with (new) units and 10 year warranties still in force.
You seem to think this covers a majority of the sites/users.

> This is happening *NOW*.

And companies make ice, *now*.  But, that doesn't mean it is happening
across the board.

You can't base your decisions on "ideal".  Instead, you have to deal
with "reality".  Unless *forced* to do so (because of legislative action
or an outright failure in their equipment), people tend not to
opt to replace things just because something better is available
(unlike disposable consumer kit).

We can produce about 6KW/m^2 per day, year round.  Damn near any
structure can host enough PV panels to power the contents of that
structure (assuming an available storage medium).  E.g., we could
EASILY produce a surplus of power from our modest home.  Why don't
we?  Why don't *most* of the homes around us do this (instead of
the ~20%)?

Because its easier to just keep paying a bit more each month and not
have to worry about selecting the kit and biting the bullet.  "If
it ain't broke, don't fix it!"  The same reason the furnace/ACbrrr/swamp
coolers in homes remain in place until *broken*, beyond repair
(yeah, the service tech will tell you that you're going to get a more
efficient NEW unit... but, you're still faced with ponying up $5K
for a unit for (this) modest home.

[Is it going to save me $50/month for 100 months -- 8.3 of the 10 year
warranty?  (Hint, our bill this month was $100; I'm pretty sure >> 50% of
it was NOT cooling -- I'll have a *real* handle on this, in the future!)
Compound this with things like "how long do you expect to live in the
home?" and "can you recover any of the cost of the installation when/if
you sell the home?" and these sorts of big investments see questionable
analysis]

Instead, people nibble at the edges.  "What can I do with $100?"
Yet, will *forget* things that are dirt cheap to do (replace filters,
clean condenser coils) unless explicitly reminded.

> The problem is that there is no EPA
> regulation requiring standardization of the trouble codes as there is
> in the automotive world.  That means that every brand's diagnostics
> are proprietary and that they won't be released unless forced to.
>
> The independent service tech is an endangered species because of the
> 10 year warranties and because of the proprietary nature of the
> systems.  There will be some bottom feeders (Rheem and Ruud for
> example) around for a few more years for use in cheap spec houses but
> they'll be pushed out by more and more stringent SEER regulations.
>
>> I'd wager the light comes on after a fixed number of "blower hours".
>> It knows nothing of the quality of filter installed, the amount of
>> dirt/dust in the edifice, the pressure drop across its surface, etc.
>
> You would lose that wager in most cases.

So, it watches for a delta-P across the filter?  (note we're not just
talking about your little splits!)

>> Do you have any idea the number of brands, models and variations there
>> are on the market of cars?  coffee pots?  personal computers?  cell
>> phones?  televisions?  Does any of that prevent owners of those
>> bits of kit from sharing their failure/repair experiences?  Does
>> it prevent those devices THEMSELVES from sharing their experiences
>> without requiring the owner/repairman to take explicit actions?
>
> with the exception of cars (where the diagnostics are standardized by
> law), none of the other items are repaired anymore except maybe by a
> few nerds.   I mean, would you really waist your time repairing a $15
> coffee pot?

Did you miss "personal computers, cell phones, televisions"?
Granted, there are large swaths of The Public that will almost WELCOME
an opportunity to replace something as a chance to "buy new"... but,
that doesn't apply universally.  Do you want to replace your $2K television
when its 2Yr warranty has expired and it shits the bed?

You're also ignoring the fact that automata can share those experiences
directly -- *if* they can "talk" to each other (or a central knowledgebase).
They don't need the involvement of a technician nor the approval of a
manufacturer (so long as I don't open any "warranty seals").

You claimed units are already doing this.  But, only to the advantage of the
"major manufacturers"; the user is out of the loop.  Why can't *my* HVAC
system share information with other HVAC systems?  And, in concert, let
them decide which things are "universal truths" -- instead of locking
that data up inside a "major manufacturer's" knowledgebase (requiring me
to use one of his "authorized agents" to effectively gain indirect
access to it)

The Internet is empowering because it allows information to be shared
that might otherwise be difficult to share *or* difficult to LOCATE.
Because the information was removed from the exclusive domain of The Few
and made available to The Many.

>> Do you think your car doesn't "tattle" on what its noticed about
>> its performance and your driving patterns when it visits the dealer?
>> Do you think the dealer -- and manufacturer -- DISCARD that information?
>
> Well, I helped design the http://www.megasquirt.com aftermarket EFI,
> used to run a tuner shop on the side, published a magazine called
> Performance Engineering that dealt primarily automotive high tech,
> used to hack GM PCMs for use on other engines (there is a very private
> mailing list where fellow EFI hackers share their exploits), own a
> very sophisticated OBD-II gateway and the software that goes with it
> so yes, I have a clue as to what data is exchanged via the OBD-II bus
> at the dealership or independent garage.
>
> BTW, if you have any real interest in this area, I strongly recommend
> the TriCAN gateway from this guy
>
> http://www.obd-2.com/

Sorry, I have far too many things on my "WANT to do" list to be able to
afford adding any other "interests"!  :<  Years ago (as a kid), I was
interested in building CDI's, instrumenting the carburetor (before EFI),
automatically cutting out the ACbrr compressor when the engine load
increased, etc.  Now, I'll let folks with bigger budgets do that sort
of thing.

[I met a guy many years ago who (lets see how I can say this diplomatically)
would modify *new* engines (including removing and adding metal to the block,
etc.) and tweak the ECU's based on how THOSE modifications altered the
engine's performance on *his* dyno.  Then, once satisfied, would "make it
look factory new, again" (technically, its never been *in* a vehicle) and
resell it for many kilobucks.  It should be obvious who his customers were!
It was fascinating to see how such little tweaks could have demonstrable
differences in performance ("why aren't they ALL made like that?") as
well as the fact that this sort of thing was actually *done*!  <grin> ]

> The software is free and will give you a real education on the state
> of government-mandated standardization.  The powertrain codes (the
> 1000 series) has been standardized by statute but none of the rest of
> the stuff that travels on the bus has been.  Things like ABS,
> stability control, cabin environmental control and even thing such as
> tail light modules chat on the CAN bus.  The manufacturers will
> release some of these so-called "extended" coded for a price.  GM's
> was $700 last time I checked.
>
> George Peper, the guy behind obd-2.com, pays for the all the extended
> code sets and incorporates them into his free software.  He's probably
> the world's foremost expert on multi-brand OBD-II technology.
>>
>> Why can't other INTERNETWORKED devices similarly share information?
>> Why does connectedness just mean "able to be controlled remotely"?
>
> Because it makes no economic sense to do so.

Why not?  Because it costs money to talk to something?  But, the HVAC
plant already talks to the thermostat.  If the thermostat can talk
to OTHER things (including the outside world), why let the data
stop, there?

Why require the HVAC plant to talk to the thermostat over a few dedicated
#18AWG conductors in a signaling cable?  Why can't it send *messages*?
And, if *it* can send messages, why should it be limited to only talking
to the thermostat?  Why shouldn't it be able to query the local atmospheric
conditions?  Or, determine household occupancy?  Or, the current electricity
consumption to alter *when* it ELECTS to engage the compressor/blower
(ToU/demand)?

Ans:  because the HVAC vendor isn't horizontally integrated enough to
have access to those "hooks" -- nor can they expect their customers to
have those hooks in place, already.

> The major manufacturers'
> diagnostic systems collect diagnostic data and sends it back to the
> manufacture when the tech connects to the net.  In other words, what
> you're proposing is already happening.

Is there a tech sitting *at* each unit 24/7/365?  I.e., the manufacturer only
sees data when a *tech* facilitates the conveyance of that data to them.
And, because of that, only sees as much data as the HVAC system can BUFFER
within.  You can't ask it:  "what were the observations on 1/1/17 and
how do they compare to 1/1/16?"

Those devices don't report 24/7/365 because they can't count on having
a means *to* communicate!  They don't have built in SMS capability
because it would be too costly to add that JUST to send data back in
real time.

OTOH, if you already *have* that infrastructure in place, the cost
of exploiting it is negligible.

Said another way, if YOUR <whatever> (ACbrrr, car, pacemaker, etc.) had the
ability to monitor <whatever> variables 24/7/365, would you deliberately
DISCARD this data?  ("I don't care how it was performing yesterday; all I
care is how it is NOT performing, today!")  Do you think all failures are 
independent events unrelated to past performance?

Referencing the "conclusions" reported in the paper at the top of
this post, do you think those "failed" systems magically failed overnight?
*Gained* a pound of refrigerant?  Or *lost* a comparable amount?
Had the technician turned up, unannounced, a few days earlier, would
he NOT have seen data that indicated these failures, at THAT time?
Or, two months before that?  etc.

>> Exactly *zero* of the ~200 homes in this subdivision have deviated from
>> the "single, central compressor" cooling system (I walk the neighborhood
>> daily).  One of the businesses that I visit has installed them (small
>> compressor/condenser on the rooftop; evaporator an eyesore on the wall
>> in each office space.
>>
>> By contrast, perhaps 20% now have roof-mounted photovoltaics.  And,
>> probably 25% of the homes with pools have passive solar (pool) water
>> heating.
>
> The government pays huge subsidies for solar installations.  Not so
> for more efficient HVAC.  The result is evident in your neighborhood.
> If the government ever offered HVAC upgrade subsidies (as a fiscal
> conservative I hope they never do), you'd see the same thing happen as
> with solar.

I.e., folks don't upgrade their HVAC because the cost to THEIR wallet
far exceeds the *perceived* savings (as I mentioned, above).  Just
like the guy who drives a beat up old pickup truck instead of a
new Prius (or, new *anything*).  He might know (and admit) that it
would be the better practice, but that knowledge isn't enough to offset
the resistance that his wallet puts up!

>> What do you do when you have no basement nor attic through which to run
>> that branch circuit?  Or, when you have to add a sub-panel to accommodate
>> the extra circuits (fed by the "old" compressor circuit)?  And, the walls
>> are concrete/slump block.
>
> I'd do the same thing that they did over at the Cambell School.  Bury
> NM cable around the outside perimeter of the building.
>
> Bitching about maybe having to use a subpanel is a bit trite, wouldn't
> you agree?

Its all *cost*.  Remember my comments re: "wallet resistance"?
There's a reason folks design "drop-in replacements" for <whatever>.
Every bit of extra effort turns into resistance to adopt the change.

Our clothes dryer has a water hookup.  You *know* that there can't
be many (any?) homes out there with THREE water connections in their
laundry areas!  So, the dryer manufacturer has to provide an
adapter that lets the dryer piggy-back on the washing machine's
connection.  If he tells the customer to make a trip to the local
hardware store to purchase it, the user will probably never install
that connection.  And, thereafter, in word-of-mouth discussions
(with potential future dryer purchasers) the dryer's capabilities
that rely on that water line will be seen as "unnecessary increases
in sales price" -- because the current owner has apparently not
USED them!

>> Shrubbery?  We live in the *desert*.  You want me to have one of these for
>> the living room (maybe it can bleed over into the dining room, as well).
>> Another for the kitchen and family rooms.  Something else to address the
>> bedrooms (in concert?) -- and hope the spillover handles the other
>> common spaces.  And, no one will notice these changes to the interior
>> or exterior of the house?
>
> Believe it or not, the entire world isn't like where you live.

Nor is it like where *you* live.  So, expecting people to adopt YOUR solution
to THEIR problem is a bit pretentious.  Just like expecting one ACbrrr unit
to be operated -- or perform -- identically to others, in other applications.

> Maybe a swamp cooler does you better.  I claim no knowledge of
> environments other than the Southeast.

I've lived in several parts of the country -- with varying types of HVAC
supplies (bottled gas, heating oil, evap coolers, ACbrrrs, steam, hot
water baseboards, electric baseboards, radiant floors, exhaust fans, etc.).
The fault many people make is in thinking that they operate the same way.

E.g., GFA is very responsive; OTOH, air with low heat content needs to
be delivered at a slower rate than hotter air (lest it feel COLD).
Oil-fired water is very slow to respond, but provides a more uniform
environment.

In one (whole-house) exhaust-fan equipped home, running the fan for
5 minutes with the windows opened on the lowest level of the house
would quickly drop the interior temperature -- far more economically
than running the ACbrrr to accomplish the same task (so: open windows,
run fan, close windows & fan, turn on ACbrrr).

But, a "thermostat" (the traditional device used for controlling
HVAC systems) can't know all of these things.  And, even if designed
to *accommodate* them, getting the necessary configuration data from
the user isn't convenient nor reliable (e.g., for how much hysteresis
is YOUR thermostat configured?)

You want to be able to draw on information from other "providers"
AND be able to convey more than is possible with a blinking light
or even a TINY graphic display.

But, you don't want to bear the cost for doing so for JUST your
HVAC system.  Or <whatever>.

And, if you can't be assured to have those hooks/capabilities
available, then the approach you take to solving the problem is
burdened by THOSE "can be met" assumptions.

OTOH, if you *know* that you have a way to integrate "services"
from different providers AND involve the user in more productive
ways, you can take an entirely different approach to solving ALL
of those problems.

When cars moved beyond the "idiot light" approach to communicating with
their driver, the interface got much richer and the interaction more
meaningful (e.g., "Place car in park" instead of just letting the
driver shut the engine off while leaving the car in gear).

In a car, you have one manufacturer that can coordinate the interactions
of all subsystems (even if implemented by different vendors).  That
hasn't happened in the home.  Because no one represents the "home"
or the "homeowner"; they're all just "third party vendors" as far
as the house is concerned.

So, the swamp cooler, ACbrrr, furnace, humidification/dehumidification,
air purifier, roof vents, etc. all act as independent entities and
the "thermostat" (aka nominal environmental control system) can't
exploit any of those capabilities -- to the advantage of the homeowner!

>>> There is a place in Brasstown Bald, NC called the Cambell School for
>>> the arts and crafts (or something like that) that is situated on a
>>> large 19th century farm.  Many of the buildings are made of stacked
>>> and cemented river rock.  Mini-splits have been installed in all the
>>> buildings.  They had someone paint the condensing units and the single
>>> line that goes indoors to match the surroundings.  I would have never
>>> known they were there had I not see an air handling unit hanging on
>>> the inside wall of one of the buildings.
>>
>> And, who *paid* for all this?
>
> Do you have a point to make?  Of course the school paid for it.  It
> was a choice of either no environmental controls in a part of the
> country that goes below 0 in the winter and is swelteringly hot and
> humid in the summer and having a very efficient and non-obtrusive
> system that makes the building habitable.  That should be obvious to
> you.

There are many ways to address those needs -- as I'm sure the school existed
long before the units you're citing were installed!  Prior to that point,
did the students and faculty "freeze and perspire"??  Did they close the
school in intemperate months?

Did all of that kit FAIL the day before it was replaced?  Someone planned
that the school *could* reap the benefits from the choice of "solution A"
over "solution B".  I suspect the individual teachers and staff didn't
consider whether THEY would be at the school when the (ROI) payback came
about.  *But*, folks acting on behalf of the school -- a considerably
longer-term entity than a homeowner in his "maison-du-jour" (13 year
average length of stay in a home -- and that assumes you make these
updates EARLY in your residency; not after 5-10 years when you're more
likely to be moving out)

>> Our next home will be below grade -- because it is just silly NOT to
>
> Good for you.  Mine was going to be too until time slipped away and I
> got too old to make it happen.  I own the perfect property.  60 acres
> of forested land with a spring fed 5 acre lake.  A nice slope on one
> side where the underground house could have been build and enough flow
> from the springs to use micro-hydro generation to be off-grid.  And,
> of course, the lake to use for the water-sourced heat pump(s).

I've no desire to be maintaining generation/cooling/heating facilities
as I age.  I'm more interested in solutions that just inherently
"work" (below grade, south-exposures with suitably constructed
overhands to shade summer sun but not winter, etc.).

Likewise, I don't want to have to rely on remembering all of the
things I should be doing each month/year to keep the house "up".
Just like I don't want to have to remember the last time I changed
the oil in the car, etc.

> <much irreverent to the thread stuff deleted>
>
>> I think we're paying about half that.  We'd save more by discarding the
>> freeezer (sitting out in the garage), unplugging the various wall-wart
>> powered devices scattered around the house (even at < 1W/each, having
>> dozens of them adds up!) and forcing the computers to "sleep" more
>> aggressively (there are 4 computers running, currently; two actively in
>> use, another servicing my network, and a fourth waiting for me to finish
>> this post so I can get back to "work").
>
> I pay 12 cents/kWh so such petite optimizations aren't worth my
> effort.  Changing out my (maybe) 10 SEER central unit with leaky duct
> work with mini-splits is.  I'm currently buying kits as spare change
> allows and storing them in the basement.  Probably do the conversion
> next year.  Payback will be about 4 years.  My contractor discount is
> 50% so I pay half what you would pay from one of the internet vendors.

And, your labor costs are "free".  So, the 4 years is probably closer
to 8.  For "average folks" who tend to live in a place 13 years?  *Most*
of that 10 year warranty?

Are you sure you won't be "forced" into an assisted living solution
before the payback?  Or, coerced by your other half?

[I finished remodeling SWMBO's place just before she opted to move, here!]

>> But money is only part of the equation.  There's also comfort/convenience
>> (its no fun to lose cooling/heating when you NEED it -- and, you only know
>> that it is gone BECAUSE you need it!).  And, there is the "independence"
>> factor:  being able to continue to live in your own home (vs. a retirement
>> home or assisted care facility) without having to keep a lengthy list of
>> all the "things" you should be checking on -- or hiring someone to check
>> on FOR you.
>
> You just made the case for multiple mini-split systems that provide
> multiple redundancy and have no single point of failure.

How does it help if your bedroom is cool but your living room isn't?
Great if you're asleep.  Not so much if you're entertaining guests!

>> Do you regularly visit your folks (or kids!) to ensure the house is "intact"
>> to address their anticipated needs for the next month (or five)?  Do
>> *they* remember to change the filter in their furnace?  Or, have the
>> compressor serviced?   Check the evaporative cooler for leaks?  etc.
>> It's April -- time for me to make my annual survey of the condition of
>> the roof (so I can affect repairs before it gets too hot *or* Monsoon
>> starts)...
>
> I would if I still had any of those people.

What do those folks (like you) do who don't have folks to look after them?
Ans:  move into a retirement home/community and outsource all of those
responsibilities (for a hefty price).  Here, its not uncommon to have
a few hundred $K "buy in" with $3-4K/person on an ongoing monthly basis.

And, no guarantee that you'll be able to *stay* there.  Many places
can't address any sorts of medical needs, alzheimer's, etc.  Other
places may opt to move you *out* to accommodate their business plans
("We're going to raze the building you're in and erect another on
that spot.  You can buy back in AFTER its completed -- but, for now,
you'll have to find other accommodations...")

>> Wouldn't it be nice if those things could remind them of these needs?
>
> Why, when an entry in the calendar of their cellphone to have the
> system serviced would do the same thing?

John, I truly hope you are never "blessed" with memory or physical
problems.  And, never have to deal with folks who are!  You may
find an extraordinary sense of resentment for just how helpless you
WILL be in those situations; helpless to take care of yourself *or*
to find "things" that you can rely on to lessen that effort.

You may, then, appreciate work that others have done to make
your later life easier (or, you can just become a grouchy old man
who resents his losses).

> OK, I'm finished with this thread.  I hope other readers have gleaned
> some helpful info.

Ditto.  I know what I need to do.  Feel free NOT to ever avail yourself of
any such "technological advances" -- including the NEXT model ACbrrrs
that are made available AFTER you've installed yours!

Back to sci.electronics.design | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

ACbrrr monitoring Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-30 14:31 -0700
  Re: ACbrrr monitoring Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-30 14:49 -0700
    Re: ACbrrr monitoring Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-30 15:02 -0700
      Re: ACbrrr monitoring Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-30 15:16 -0700
        Re: ACbrrr monitoring Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-30 15:45 -0700
  Re: ACbrrr monitoring Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-03-31 18:08 -0400
    Re: ACbrrr monitoring Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-31 15:33 -0700
      Re: ACbrrr monitoring Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-31 15:53 -0700
        Re: ACbrrr monitoring Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-03-31 20:36 -0400
          Re: ACbrrr monitoring Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-31 19:22 -0700
            Re: ACbrrr monitoring Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-04-01 12:18 -0400
              Re: ACbrrr monitoring Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-04-01 11:17 -0700
                Re: ACbrrr monitoring Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-04-02 12:26 -0400
                Re: ACbrrr monitoring Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-04-02 14:42 -0700
    Re: ACbrrr monitoring Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-31 16:06 -0700
      Re: ACbrrr monitoring Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-03-31 20:53 -0400
        Re: ACbrrr monitoring Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-31 19:38 -0700
          Re: ACbrrr monitoring krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-31 23:11 -0400

csiph-web