Re: Language feature selection

From	Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: Language feature selection
Date	2017-03-16 17:23 -0700
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<oafa48$kmn$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(9 earlier) <ck07ccpor225bo3ovb6vntsqaqb9t8kn15@4ax.com> <oa1j82$tja$1@dont-email.me> <scdbcclcc152sh9g66cni5emsqjggkniv3@4ax.com> <oa4oon$s0r$1@dont-email.me> <inljcc1n15d869k10l8i0ve9rfhbgp8run@4ax.com>

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Hi George,

On 3/15/2017 6:05 PM, George Neuner wrote:

>> Assume applet, memory_manager_module, applet_parent.
>>
>> Applet_parent (for example) instantiates a memory object for applet.  Part
>> of that requires binding parameters to that memory object (size, granularity,
>> allocation_policy, release_policy, etc.).  Applet_parent need not persist
>> beyond this point (assume its job is done).
>>
>> Where do the bound parameters get stored?  In the applet?  In the memory
>> object?  Obviously, can't be part of applet_parent because that won't
>> persist (unless you make other arrangements for it or portions of it).
>>
>> [I.e., applet_parent can't define an allocation handler in its body.]
>>
>> Now, migrate applet to another node.  Another (shared) instance of
>> memory_manager_module likely already exists on that node.  If the
>> allocation handler was a "stock" handler (contained in the
>> memory_manager_module), can you simply copy the state over to
>> the new node?
>>
>> What if the allocation handler was resident in some OTHER module
>> on the original node?  Do you migrate that other module, as well?
>> Or, instantiate another copy if the module has outstanding references
>> on the first node??
>
> For one "applet" (process / security context) to allocate memory on
> behalf of another, that memory has to be supplied by something that
> exists outside of either of them.

Actually, the memory can exist anywhere:  in some global space, in
the "allocating entity" or in the "client entity".  As can the code
that does the actual allocating (at the behest of the allocator).

[Consider client environment not supporting arbitrary pointers.
Unless something *gives* you a reference/handle to a piece of memory,
there's no way you can access its contents (short of an exploit).
E.g., no way you can go looking up/down the stack even though you
know there *is* a stack supporting the implementation language]

> Thus the system memory manager can't be a dynamic "module" loaded
> locally into a process.  Its *interface* could be, but not the manager
> itself.
>
> Leaving that aside.
>
> Ok, so you have a block of system memory, and you created one (or
> more) heaps having certain properties within the block - heaps which
> are "managed" locally in the process by code from a dynamic module.
> And now you want to rehost the process.

Objects (heaps in this example) are managed by <something>.  That
something may be the entity "owning" the object, a proxy or the
OS acting as the "proxy of last resort".

The actions involved in management may reside in the OS, a service
(created by <something> -- including the client in question!) or the
client.  At the direct or *implied* request of the client, etc.

> 1) The obvious: store the heap properties together with the heap so
> that "copying" (serializing) the contents of the memory block to
> another host replicates the heap state for the equivalent "manager"
> module on that system.

This potentially exposes those "trusted" parameters to abuse by
the entiti(es) having access to the underlying object.  E.g., if client
can tweek the "heapsize" parameter stored there, then it can potentially
trick the "manager" on the remote system to instantiate a larger heap than
it was originally allowed to create (unless you rerun the "create_heap"
request as part of the migration effort)

Likewise, if some of the "properties" reside *in* the client (e.g.,
the algorithm by which allocations will be performed -- under the
supervision of some remote/system service that actually *does* them),
then you have to drag that/those things along with you.

[Imagine these things reside in a *third* entity]

> 2) Rehosting a running process necessarily requires checkpointing,
> copying or reconstructing its entire dynamic state: heaps, stacks,
> globals, loaded modules, kernel [meta]data, etc. - far more than one
> memory block.
>
> Every piece of distributed state must be identifiable as belonging to
> the process - regardless of what "module" may have created or is
> currently managing it.
>
> You have to copy all data belonging to the process, so having heap
> properties stored separately from the heap itself is not a problem.

In my "portable" case, this is handled by moving the object handles.
The system can then opt to "optimize" execution by (later?) moving the
actual object instances (to minimize communication delays or take
better advantage of processing power on some particular node -- which
may differ from the source or destination nodes)

But, you can (currently!) create "non-portable" objects.  And, objects
that can't (easily) be shared.  (e.g., for a "conventional" heap, you
can let the default policies available in a "heap manager" govern
the way the heap operates.  *But*, you can't take advantage of any
"enhanced capabilities" in much the same way that you can't in a
more conventional process container, etc.)

The problem with this (apparently arbitrary) distinction between
portable/shareable objects and "legacy" variety implementations
is that the developer has to explicitly decide what can be migrated,
shared, and how (because the developer has to take extra steps at
compile and link time to make those capabilities available).

So, where these sorts of bindings get stored (and how they get
tracked) varies based on this "other" information that the developer
supplies.

[You don't want to have to change the sources to support these
abilities as you want to be able to experiment with letting them migrate,
be shared, etc. without having to undertake a rewrite/refactoring.
And, I can't see an easy way for the build tools to determine that
without explicit directives from the developer (hence my related
comments in this thread)]

> [Unless the systems involved do not have MMU/VMM such that the process
> address space can be faithfully reconstructed ... but if you really
> need to do it, it can be done using a software based virtual machine
> solution.]
>
>> Or, do you require declarations as to what *can* migrate and what
>> is bound in place?  Then, contend with the consequences of
>> cascaded dependencies?
>>
>> The "consistent" solution is to make all of these first class
>> objects and let the OS manage them and their locations/instantiations.
>> But, that adds considerably to the cost of *using* them.
>
> Yes, that certainly is the ridiculous, overcompensating solution.
>
> The "consistent" solution is the one done already by any decent OS:
> keep a record of all the kernel structures and memory pages belonging
> to the process.
>
> Program objects then are just ordinary data in memory blocks "owned"
> by the process, or by the kernel on behalf of the process.

But that ignores all of the "other" dependencies that can be in
play at any given time (i.e., my "solution" being these portable
handles that the OS tracks for the application/developer).  So,
<something> knows that there is an aspect of the current applet's
instantiation that relies upon something else *or* that is relied
upon BY something else.

[My approach lets the run-time know of these possible external
references by the presence of object handles held -- or exported -- by
the applet in question.  *Absent* these, the task is just a block of
memory and "processor state" that can be copied anywhere and "resumed".]

> Ensuring that a rehosted program will work is another matter.  But as
> I understand (???) your system, there is location transparent naming
> and equivalence[*] hosts will expose the same set of service APIs.
>
> [*] capable of running the same applications.
>
>> Its a lot easier to deal with implementations where "everything" is
>> a cohesive "blob" instead of being able to slice-and-dice it at
>> run-time and redistribute it based on evolving workloads, resources,
>> etc.
>
> You can somewhat mitigate the problem by making large allocations
> piece wise: abusing VMM to make them appear address contiguous.
>
> E.g., if a process asks for 100MB, reserve the address space but
> instantiate just a few megabytes at a time, on demand as the process
> touches unbacked addresses.
>
> [Because (I assume) you don't want to overcommit memory, you need to
> reserve requested address space both locally in the process, and
> globally so that other processes can't accidentally grab it.]

Resource constraints vary with the resource and the consumer/provider.
You can overcommit many resources because many "jobs" don't exploit
their worst-case resource needs.

But, you do so at the risk of delaying the availability of those resources
to the job in question.  Or, some other job interested in those resources.

[E.g., if your job is diarising a previously recorded telephone conversation,
it can *probably* afford to block waiting on memory that it needs to complete
that task -- perhaps even indefinitely!  It shouldn't be prevented from
starting just because the MAX memory that MIGHT be required isn't presently
available.  Nor should all of that memory be wired down for its benefit
without knowing that it *will* need it -- or, when!]

> You need to reconstruct the address space on the new host, but you
> need only copy as much physical memory as the process is actually
> using.
>
> Aside: one of the nice features of "moving" GC is that it compacts
> live data into a (usually) smaller address range.  You don't want to
> have to copy a large block to get at a much smaller volume of data
> contained within it.

But you need a way of tying a "handle" to the data involved -- and,
later, resolving that reference.

> There are a number of tricks that involve using VMM to implement GC.
> You can't completely avoid data copying if you want to compact the
> live data, but using VMM techniques together with clustered BiBoP
> allocation, you can reduce the amount of copying to bare minimum.
>
> It also is possible to use VMM and just the tracing step of GC to
> identify the actual set of pages containing live data ... you don't
> need to copy any more than that even if the process has much more
> memory instantiated.
>
> And regardless of whether you (would want to) use GC in normal
> operation, if it is supported by the language/runtime, a compacting
> collection executed before rehosting a process would minimize both
> what needs to be copied and the physical memory that must be
> instantiated on the target.
>
>> Last 25# of oranges... yippee!
>
> 10 inches of snow, followed by sleet, followed by freezing temps.  The

Yeah, caught a glimpse of that on the national news...

> crust is ~3/4 of an inch thick - my 185 lbs can walk on top of it. Had
> to use the heavy coal shovel to break it up so it could be removed.

90's, here.  I think 95 expected this weekend.  Being outdoors is a
chore as it's either too warm during the daylight hours *or* the air
too "smelly" (everything is in bloom) in the cooler hours when the
breeze has died down.

I'd (personally) appreciate a cold spell (but not *now* as the new
crop of fruit is setting in place) to slow the growth process.  I
suspect it will be a bad year for insects!

[Normally, we don't see 95 until May; and 90 until mid-April]

Thread

Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-05 16:03 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl> - 2017-03-06 08:04 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 10:31 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl> - 2017-03-07 23:29 +0100
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 02:49 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 13:18 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl> - 2017-03-08 16:58 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 10:35 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 22:07 +0100
  Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-06 08:40 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-06 10:31 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 08:47 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-06 21:33 +0100
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 13:44 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-07 12:24 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 09:34 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 10:14 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 10:37 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 22:09 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-06 22:50 +0200
      Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-07 12:31 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-07 14:45 -0500
  Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-06 08:39 +0000
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 08:39 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-06 17:27 +0000
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 13:30 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-03-06 11:11 +0200
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 13:38 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-03-07 12:18 +0200
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 10:28 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-06 13:33 -0500
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 13:36 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-06 22:15 -0500
        Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-06 22:22 -0500
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 00:27 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-08 12:20 -0500
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 11:23 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-10 13:43 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 16:49 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-11 04:17 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 12:33 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-12 18:08 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 17:25 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-15 21:05 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-16 17:23 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-17 23:59 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-17 23:25 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-18 12:05 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-18 04:04 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-18 04:39 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-18 03:55 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-18 16:00 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-11 16:35 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 15:39 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-06 18:59 +0000
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 12:36 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2017-03-07 19:02 +0000
    Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-07 19:18 +0000
      Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-07 19:19 +0000
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 12:38 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-07 22:10 -0600
    Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-07 20:35 -0800
      Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-08 20:43 -0600
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 23:48 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-08 20:48 -0600
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 21:15 -0700
        Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-09 01:33 -0800
        Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-09 14:47 +0000
          Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 16:40 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-09 16:15 +0000
              Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 22:04 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-03-10 07:46 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-10 13:21 +0100
              Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-09 17:57 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-10 11:16 +0200
        Re: Language feature selection Jacob Sparre Andersen <jacob@jacob-sparre.dk> - 2017-03-10 20:39 +0100
          Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 13:32 -0800
            Re: Language feature selection Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-03-11 14:58 +0200
              Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-13 13:02 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 10:46 +0100
      Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-08 20:33 -0600
        Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 11:08 +0100
          Re: Language feature selection Britt <britt.snodgrass@gmail.com> - 2017-03-09 07:04 -0800
            Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 16:36 +0100
              Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-09 16:11 +0000
              Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-09 12:06 -0600
              Re: Language feature selection Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-03-09 19:26 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 22:08 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2017-03-09 19:04 +0000
              Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-09 15:34 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-09 15:40 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2017-03-10 14:19 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 11:10 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 11:49 -0700
        Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-09 18:00 -0600
    Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-09 17:54 -0600
      Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-09 18:54 -0600
        Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-10 04:07 +0000
          Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 08:07 -0600
        Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-10 13:59 +0100
      Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-10 08:17 +0000
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 11:24 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-10 19:09 +0000
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 12:33 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-10 23:25 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-10 20:22 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 01:32 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 18:16 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 09:59 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-11 02:23 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 11:13 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-11 14:28 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-11 17:20 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-12 16:26 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-12 21:46 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-12 23:15 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-13 14:14 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-13 18:48 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection "Brian G. Lucas" <bagel99@gmail.com> - 2017-03-13 15:17 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-03-13 23:17 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection "Brian G. Lucas" <bagel99@gmail.com> - 2017-03-13 17:27 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 17:10 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-03-14 10:11 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection "Brian G. Lucas" <bagel99@gmail.com> - 2017-03-14 12:23 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-14 13:27 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-14 13:30 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-14 22:03 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-14 17:24 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-11 07:19 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 19:43 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-12 09:28 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-12 15:15 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-12 19:38 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 18:08 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-11 04:22 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 10:02 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-11 02:22 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 11:07 +0000
          Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 14:30 -0600
            Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 13:37 -0800
              Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 16:30 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 18:14 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-11 07:46 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 12:53 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-12 09:45 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 11:56 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-03-12 21:05 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 14:40 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-03-13 00:36 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 17:00 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-13 16:50 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 17:08 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-13 20:51 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 20:31 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-14 21:45 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-14 21:16 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-11 16:40 -0600
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 15:10 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 16:42 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 17:02 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 00:46 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 13:05 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 21:58 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 15:19 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 23:27 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 20:14 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 12:16 -0700
        Re: Language feature selection Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-03-10 20:40 +0100
          Re: Language feature selection Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl> - 2017-03-10 22:28 +0100
  Re: Language feature selection Jacob Sparre Andersen <jacob@jacob-sparre.dk> - 2017-03-10 20:03 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-10 19:48 +0000
      Re: Language feature selection Jacob Sparre Andersen <jacob@jacob-sparre.dk> - 2017-03-13 21:25 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 13:03 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Jacob Sparre Andersen <jacob@jacob-sparre.dk> - 2017-03-13 21:40 +0100
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 14:35 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-14 01:06 +0000
            Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-13 19:23 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-14 08:48 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-14 02:14 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-14 09:33 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-14 09:21 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-17 06:01 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 11:39 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-17 07:16 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 13:49 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-17 11:03 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-17 19:21 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-17 11:34 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-17 20:26 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 20:07 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 20:29 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-17 19:19 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-18 08:18 +0000
            Re: Language feature selection Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-03-14 21:20 +0100
  Re: Language feature selection jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-03-10 18:46 -0800
    Re: Language feature selection Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-03-11 15:41 +0200
      Re: Language feature selection jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-03-11 14:20 -0800
        Re: Language feature selection upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-12 00:54 +0200
          Re: Language feature selection jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-03-12 18:08 -0700
            Re: Language feature selection upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-13 23:36 +0200
          Re: Language feature selection Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-13 17:03 -0500
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 14:21 -0700

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