Re: Language feature selection

From	Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: Language feature selection
Date	2017-03-14 13:30 -0400
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<oa99bm$1cl0$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(13 earlier) <RZQwA.66244$o87.47982@fx21.am4> <tp7bcctvqbgam21is1la7q0i0oc6ra6522@4ax.com> <rEkxA.80166$Iy2.46394@fx28.am4> <oa6ni5$f9j$1@gioia.aioe.org> <oa8ne7$gto$1@dont-email.me>

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On 2017-03-14 8:27 AM, David Brown wrote:
> On 13/03/17 19:14, Walter Banks wrote:
>> On 2017-03-12 7:15 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>> That's why the necessity of having "language lawyers" to unravel
>>> the arcane complexity of modern C/C++ and tools implies that
>>> modern C/C++ is part of the problem as much as it is part of the
>>> solution.
>>
>> Having been at quite a few WG-14 meetings. C/C++ issues are a
>> combination of some level of compatibility to old tools and dealing
>> with new emerging code generation requirements. Thrown in for good
>> measure was C  "Conventional wisdom" (Everyone knows that C does
>> "this")
>>
>> It is hard to advance a language with that type of background.
>> Many things are, "implementation defined", it is difficult to
>> extend the language and many legacy items remained obscure.
>>
>> The open source folks for the most part didn't participate and
>> created their own variation. Conforming test suites have been for
>> the most part have been commercial products that are very useful in
>> creating conforming compilers but the implementation defined and
>> conventional wisdom aspects tends to impact the language
>> portability.
>>
>
> In the earlier days of C standards, there was not much participation
> from open source folks.  Much of the WG were people with rather
> specialised focus (look at yourself - your own compilers are mostly
> aimed at the most C-unfriendly processors around, and are full of
> non-standard extensions to get the most from such cpus).  The
> standardisation process was slow, it was extremely difficult to get
> new ideas into the language, it is almost impossible to throw out
> old compatibilities (such as for one's complement machines), and the
> bureaucratic factor was high.  Those involved in open source
> compilers (which basically meant "gcc" at the time) were more
> interested in writing tools that worked, with extensions to suit
> their users - you could well say they were not mature enough members
> of the industry to see the importance of the standardisation
> process.
>
> That changed with time, and both gcc and clang folks are involved
> with language standardisation groups (mainly C++ rather than C, since
> that is where most of the work is).  And both gcc and clang work hard
> to support the standards (while also supporting a number of
> extensions).  There are no compilers, commercial or open source, that
> come close to gcc in the standards support for a broad range of
> targets.  Most commercial embedded C compilers struggle enough with
> C99 and C++03, and haven't considered C11, C++11 or C++14.   Most
> don't even document which C or C++ standards they are close to
> supporting - it's all just "C" or "C++" to them.  Most of them rely
> on extensions (as distinct from /allowing/ extensions to improve
> code).  And most commercial C compiler developers have never even
> heard of conformance test suites like Plum Hall, never mind
> considered using them.  (Several companies will provide you with Plum
> Hall certificates for gcc - for a price.  These companies also work
> to fix any non-conformances they find in gcc.)
>
>
>> C isn't is particularly portable in many applications.
>>
>
> A lot of embedded C code is closely tied to the target - but some
> parts can be made highly portable.  C covers a wide range of
> possibilities here.
>
>

Comments well taken. One of the things you point out is the
non-conformance of the tools we develop and sell for embedded systems
and I would like to also point out that a lot of my work with WG-14 is
to provide a voice to explain the needs and solutions to supporting
embedded systems. I have done this with work on the actual standards and
on IEC/ISO documents that supplements the WG-14 C standards documents
that is part of the WG-14 work.

I should also point out the WG-14 mandate is to codify the current
practice not to invent or define new standards or syntax. The standards
committees will debate and define a resolution of conflicting syntax for
new features. I can point to the nonstandard language structures in my
work that became part of the standards.

WG-14 has several times discovered just how important the need for
existing practice is when they have wandered outside that boundary. One
essential ingredient to new standards is the need for a body of
experience to validate a change.

I stand by my comment that the open source people have been for the most
part absent from these discussions.

w..

Thread

Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-05 16:03 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl> - 2017-03-06 08:04 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 10:31 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl> - 2017-03-07 23:29 +0100
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 02:49 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 13:18 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl> - 2017-03-08 16:58 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 10:35 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 22:07 +0100
  Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-06 08:40 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-06 10:31 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 08:47 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-06 21:33 +0100
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 13:44 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-07 12:24 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 09:34 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 10:14 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 10:37 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 22:09 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-06 22:50 +0200
      Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-07 12:31 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-07 14:45 -0500
  Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-06 08:39 +0000
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 08:39 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-06 17:27 +0000
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 13:30 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-03-06 11:11 +0200
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 13:38 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-03-07 12:18 +0200
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 10:28 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-06 13:33 -0500
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 13:36 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-06 22:15 -0500
        Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-06 22:22 -0500
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 00:27 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-08 12:20 -0500
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 11:23 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-10 13:43 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 16:49 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-11 04:17 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 12:33 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-12 18:08 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 17:25 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-15 21:05 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-16 17:23 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-17 23:59 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-17 23:25 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-18 12:05 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-18 04:04 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-18 04:39 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-18 03:55 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-18 16:00 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-11 16:35 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 15:39 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-06 18:59 +0000
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 12:36 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2017-03-07 19:02 +0000
    Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-07 19:18 +0000
      Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-07 19:19 +0000
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 12:38 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-07 22:10 -0600
    Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-07 20:35 -0800
      Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-08 20:43 -0600
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 23:48 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-08 20:48 -0600
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 21:15 -0700
        Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-09 01:33 -0800
        Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-09 14:47 +0000
          Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 16:40 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-09 16:15 +0000
              Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 22:04 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-03-10 07:46 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-10 13:21 +0100
              Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-09 17:57 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-10 11:16 +0200
        Re: Language feature selection Jacob Sparre Andersen <jacob@jacob-sparre.dk> - 2017-03-10 20:39 +0100
          Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 13:32 -0800
            Re: Language feature selection Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-03-11 14:58 +0200
              Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-13 13:02 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 10:46 +0100
      Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-08 20:33 -0600
        Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 11:08 +0100
          Re: Language feature selection Britt <britt.snodgrass@gmail.com> - 2017-03-09 07:04 -0800
            Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 16:36 +0100
              Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-09 16:11 +0000
              Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-09 12:06 -0600
              Re: Language feature selection Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-03-09 19:26 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 22:08 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2017-03-09 19:04 +0000
              Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-09 15:34 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-09 15:40 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2017-03-10 14:19 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 11:10 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 11:49 -0700
        Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-09 18:00 -0600
    Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-09 17:54 -0600
      Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-09 18:54 -0600
        Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-10 04:07 +0000
          Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 08:07 -0600
        Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-10 13:59 +0100
      Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-10 08:17 +0000
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 11:24 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-10 19:09 +0000
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 12:33 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-10 23:25 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-10 20:22 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 01:32 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 18:16 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 09:59 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-11 02:23 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 11:13 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-11 14:28 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-11 17:20 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-12 16:26 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-12 21:46 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-12 23:15 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-13 14:14 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-13 18:48 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection "Brian G. Lucas" <bagel99@gmail.com> - 2017-03-13 15:17 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-03-13 23:17 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection "Brian G. Lucas" <bagel99@gmail.com> - 2017-03-13 17:27 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 17:10 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-03-14 10:11 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection "Brian G. Lucas" <bagel99@gmail.com> - 2017-03-14 12:23 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-14 13:27 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-14 13:30 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-14 22:03 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-14 17:24 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-11 07:19 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 19:43 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-12 09:28 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-12 15:15 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-12 19:38 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 18:08 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-11 04:22 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 10:02 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-11 02:22 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 11:07 +0000
          Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 14:30 -0600
            Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 13:37 -0800
              Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 16:30 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 18:14 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-11 07:46 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 12:53 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-12 09:45 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 11:56 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-03-12 21:05 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 14:40 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-03-13 00:36 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 17:00 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-13 16:50 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 17:08 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-13 20:51 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 20:31 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-14 21:45 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-14 21:16 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-11 16:40 -0600
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 15:10 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 16:42 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 17:02 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 00:46 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 13:05 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 21:58 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 15:19 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 23:27 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 20:14 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 12:16 -0700
        Re: Language feature selection Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-03-10 20:40 +0100
          Re: Language feature selection Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl> - 2017-03-10 22:28 +0100
  Re: Language feature selection Jacob Sparre Andersen <jacob@jacob-sparre.dk> - 2017-03-10 20:03 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-10 19:48 +0000
      Re: Language feature selection Jacob Sparre Andersen <jacob@jacob-sparre.dk> - 2017-03-13 21:25 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 13:03 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Jacob Sparre Andersen <jacob@jacob-sparre.dk> - 2017-03-13 21:40 +0100
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 14:35 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-14 01:06 +0000
            Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-13 19:23 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-14 08:48 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-14 02:14 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-14 09:33 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-14 09:21 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-17 06:01 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 11:39 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-17 07:16 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 13:49 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-17 11:03 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-17 19:21 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-17 11:34 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-17 20:26 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 20:07 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 20:29 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-17 19:19 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-18 08:18 +0000
            Re: Language feature selection Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-03-14 21:20 +0100
  Re: Language feature selection jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-03-10 18:46 -0800
    Re: Language feature selection Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-03-11 15:41 +0200
      Re: Language feature selection jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-03-11 14:20 -0800
        Re: Language feature selection upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-12 00:54 +0200
          Re: Language feature selection jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-03-12 18:08 -0700
            Re: Language feature selection upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-13 23:36 +0200
          Re: Language feature selection Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-13 17:03 -0500
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 14:21 -0700

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