Re: Language feature selection

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: Language feature selection
Date	2017-03-09 11:08 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<o9r9dl$3f6$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	<o9i5ao$heb$1@dont-email.me> <o9o07h$1g6j$1@gioia.aioe.org> <o9ojo0$p95$1@dont-email.me> <o9qeue$1r0a$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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On 09/03/17 03:33, Walter Banks wrote:
> On 2017-03-08 3:46 AM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 08/03/17 05:10, Walter Banks wrote:
>>> On 2017-03-05 5:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>> A quick/informal/UNSCIENTIFIC poll:
>>>>
>>>> What *single* (non-traditional) language feature do you find
>>>> most valuable in developing code?  (and, applicable language if
>>>> unique to *a* language or class of languages)
>>>
>>> The @ in various forms to tie a physical address to a symbolic
>>> variable. This construct more that any other single thing allows
>>> many high level languages have the ability broaden the range of
>>> potential applications from high level to close to the machine.
>>>
>>> It is language independent and very easy to add to compilers
>>> without changing the basic form of the language.
>>>
>>
>> Do you mean having a compiler extension for:
>>
>> volatile uint8_t REG @ 0x1234;
>>
>> rather than the standard C:
>>
>> #define REG (*((volatile uint8_t*) 0x1234))
>>
>> Certainly the "@" syntax is neater, and certainly it is nice if
>> means "REG" turns up in the linker map file and debugging data.  But
>> it is hardly a breakthrough, and does not allow anything that cannot
>> be done in normal C syntax just as efficiently (assuming the
>> compiler implementation is sane).
>>
>> Most embedded compilers don't have anything equivalent to the "@"
>> syntax - yet people seem to manage to use them perfectly well for
>> "close to the machine" programming.
> 
> 
> I saw it as an abstract question. My comment was a clean simple way to
> directly interface to the machine completely separate from the language
> proper. Developers in a surprising number of languages have found some
> round about way to accomplish this demonstrating its need.
> 
> The C constant pointer Kludge although functionally similar generally
> misses out having proper symbolic debugging support.

Far and away the most common reason to need variables at specific
addresses is to access hardware registers.  In such cases, the C
"constant pointer kludge" is perfectly good, and decent compilers will
generate solid code for it.  (Often they will be able to generate more
optimal code than if you use alternatives such as symbols in assembly or
linker-defined addresses.)

It is true that the variable is not a normal variable available for
symbolic debugging - but you don't /want/ it to be available in the
debugger like a normal variable, because it is /not/ a normal variable.
 With normal variables, you want to be able to hover your mouse over the
variable "nextCharacter" in your code and have the debugger show you the
value.  But you absolutely do not want that to happen when you hover
over "UART_DATA_REG", because reading it could trigger a move from a
FIFO, setting a CTS signal, or whatever.

An IDE for embedded development will usually have a window for
"registers" or "IO registers" - /that/ is where you want to see this
sort of thing, because that window and the software behind it should be
aware of details about what can be read or written in different ways.

> 
> uint8_t REG @ 0x1234; is just as viable a declaration without the volatile.

But what use is that?

> 
> Many if not most non open source compilers for embedded systems some
> form @.

No, they don't.  /Some/ have a type of "@" syntax.  /Some/ have other
extensions to declare something as an I/O register at a fixed address.
And other compilers have nothing of the sort, but rely on standard¹ C
and/or linker scripts.

The "@" form is most common in compilers for brain-dead 8-bit CISC
architectures, which are rapidly becoming a thing of the past.  With
more modern cpu architectures, it is usually more efficient to access
peripherals as structs with a base address, rather than a series of
explicit addresses.  In many compliers, the "@" syntax or other special
I/O register syntax is tightly tied to fundamental types - you can use
it for uint8_t, uint16_t and perhaps uint32_t, but not for "struct uart_t".

It is certainly possible that compilers for modern cpus /could/ have a
"@" syntax that works on structs, arrays, and other types.  But there is
/nothing/ that could be done with that syntax that could not also be
done perfectly well with the "constant pointer kludge".  And since these
definitions are almost always buried inside an automatically generated
chip-specific header file, "ugly" is of little relevance.

¹ I say "standard C", with the proviso that the C standards say that
"what constitutes a volatile access is implementation dependent".

> 
> The concept as I have found is just as useful in many languages I have
> used.
> 

Other languages that don't have something equivalent to the "C constant
pointer kludge" may need an extension of some sort to efficiently access
I/O registers.  But which languages would that be, and are they actually
used in embedded programming?

Thread

Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-05 16:03 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl> - 2017-03-06 08:04 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 10:31 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl> - 2017-03-07 23:29 +0100
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 02:49 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 13:18 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl> - 2017-03-08 16:58 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 10:35 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 22:07 +0100
  Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-06 08:40 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-06 10:31 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 08:47 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-06 21:33 +0100
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 13:44 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-07 12:24 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 09:34 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 10:14 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 10:37 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 22:09 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-06 22:50 +0200
      Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-07 12:31 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-07 14:45 -0500
  Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-06 08:39 +0000
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 08:39 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-06 17:27 +0000
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 13:30 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-03-06 11:11 +0200
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 13:38 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-03-07 12:18 +0200
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 10:28 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-06 13:33 -0500
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 13:36 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-06 22:15 -0500
        Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-06 22:22 -0500
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 00:27 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-08 12:20 -0500
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 11:23 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-10 13:43 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 16:49 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-11 04:17 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 12:33 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-12 18:08 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 17:25 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-15 21:05 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-16 17:23 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-17 23:59 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-17 23:25 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-18 12:05 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-18 04:04 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-18 04:39 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-18 03:55 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-18 16:00 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-11 16:35 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 15:39 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-06 18:59 +0000
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-06 12:36 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2017-03-07 19:02 +0000
    Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-07 19:18 +0000
      Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-07 19:19 +0000
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 12:38 -0700
  Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-07 22:10 -0600
    Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-07 20:35 -0800
      Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-08 20:43 -0600
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-07 23:48 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-08 20:48 -0600
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-08 21:15 -0700
        Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-09 01:33 -0800
        Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-09 14:47 +0000
          Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 16:40 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-09 16:15 +0000
              Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 22:04 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-03-10 07:46 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-10 13:21 +0100
              Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-09 17:57 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-10 11:16 +0200
        Re: Language feature selection Jacob Sparre Andersen <jacob@jacob-sparre.dk> - 2017-03-10 20:39 +0100
          Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 13:32 -0800
            Re: Language feature selection Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-03-11 14:58 +0200
              Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-13 13:02 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-08 10:46 +0100
      Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-08 20:33 -0600
        Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 11:08 +0100
          Re: Language feature selection Britt <britt.snodgrass@gmail.com> - 2017-03-09 07:04 -0800
            Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 16:36 +0100
              Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-09 16:11 +0000
              Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-09 12:06 -0600
              Re: Language feature selection Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-03-09 19:26 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-09 22:08 +0100
            Re: Language feature selection Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2017-03-09 19:04 +0000
              Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-09 15:34 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-09 15:40 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2017-03-10 14:19 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 11:10 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 11:49 -0700
        Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-09 18:00 -0600
    Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-09 17:54 -0600
      Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-09 18:54 -0600
        Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-10 04:07 +0000
          Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 08:07 -0600
        Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-10 13:59 +0100
      Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-10 08:17 +0000
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 11:24 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-10 19:09 +0000
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 12:33 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-10 23:25 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-10 20:22 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 01:32 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 18:16 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 09:59 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-11 02:23 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 11:13 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-11 14:28 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-11 17:20 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-12 16:26 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-12 21:46 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-12 23:15 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-13 14:14 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-13 18:48 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection "Brian G. Lucas" <bagel99@gmail.com> - 2017-03-13 15:17 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-03-13 23:17 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection "Brian G. Lucas" <bagel99@gmail.com> - 2017-03-13 17:27 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 17:10 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-03-14 10:11 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection "Brian G. Lucas" <bagel99@gmail.com> - 2017-03-14 12:23 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-14 13:27 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-14 13:30 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-14 22:03 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-14 17:24 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-11 07:19 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 19:43 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-12 09:28 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-12 15:15 -0400
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-12 19:38 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 18:08 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-03-11 04:22 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 10:02 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-11 02:22 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 11:07 +0000
          Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 14:30 -0600
            Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 13:37 -0800
              Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 16:30 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 18:14 -0800
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-11 07:46 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 12:53 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-12 09:45 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 11:56 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-03-12 21:05 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 14:40 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-03-13 00:36 +0200
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 17:00 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-13 16:50 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 17:08 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-13 20:51 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 20:31 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-14 21:45 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-14 21:16 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-11 16:40 -0600
            Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 15:10 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 16:42 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 17:02 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 00:46 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 13:05 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 21:58 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 15:19 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 23:27 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-03-10 20:14 -0600
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 12:16 -0700
        Re: Language feature selection Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-03-10 20:40 +0100
          Re: Language feature selection Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl> - 2017-03-10 22:28 +0100
  Re: Language feature selection Jacob Sparre Andersen <jacob@jacob-sparre.dk> - 2017-03-10 20:03 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-03-10 19:48 +0000
      Re: Language feature selection Jacob Sparre Andersen <jacob@jacob-sparre.dk> - 2017-03-13 21:25 +0100
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-10 13:03 -0700
      Re: Language feature selection Jacob Sparre Andersen <jacob@jacob-sparre.dk> - 2017-03-13 21:40 +0100
        Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 14:35 -0700
          Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-14 01:06 +0000
            Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-13 19:23 -0700
              Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-14 08:48 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-14 02:14 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-14 09:33 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-14 09:21 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-17 06:01 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 11:39 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-17 07:16 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 13:49 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-17 11:03 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-17 19:21 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-17 11:34 -0700
                Re: Language feature selection David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-17 20:26 +0100
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 20:07 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 20:29 +0000
                Re: Language feature selection Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-03-17 19:19 -0500
                Re: Language feature selection Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-03-18 08:18 +0000
            Re: Language feature selection Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2017-03-14 21:20 +0100
  Re: Language feature selection jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-03-10 18:46 -0800
    Re: Language feature selection Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-03-11 15:41 +0200
      Re: Language feature selection jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-03-11 14:20 -0800
        Re: Language feature selection upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-12 00:54 +0200
          Re: Language feature selection jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2017-03-12 18:08 -0700
            Re: Language feature selection upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-03-13 23:36 +0200
          Re: Language feature selection Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-13 17:03 -0500
    Re: Language feature selection Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 14:21 -0700

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